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“The Stone Chapel Podcast” is part of the ChurchLeaders Podcast Network.
This episode has been edited for clarity and space.
Nijay Gupta
Hi. My name is Nijay Gupta. I serve as Professor of New Testament at Northern Seminary in Chicago.
David Capes
Dr. Nijay Gupta, Nijay, great to see you, my friend.
Nijay Gupta
Hi, David. Good to see you again.
David Capes
Today we’re going to be talking about a book that you’ve written. Man, you’re writing a lot of books, called “Tell Her Story.” And here’s the subtitle; “How Women Led, Taught and Ministered in the Early Church.”
Nijay Gupta
This is one of those books that touches my passions and interests in ministry. My wife is in ministry. So it’s exciting that a book like this is getting some interest and starting some discussions. There’s this pattern where God’s going to do the opposite of what you expect, because it’s about His glory and not our privilege. There is this idea that, okay, the disciples were men, the kings were men, but then you have Deborah, who is one of the very highest, successful, righteous leaders, in one of Israel’s darkest times.
David Capes
That’s in one of the earlier chapters. And it’s a great chapter, by the way.
Nijay Gupta
These things start to raise questions. There’s Romans, chapter 16 and all these women who are in ministry, Phoebe and Junia and Tryphena and Tryphosa and Mary of Rome and Persis and the sister of Nereus, the mother of Rufus. There are all these women when we look at the New Testament, and we look at early Christianity. Women were everywhere, doing virtually everything. What I realized as I’m studying Paul is women are often found outside the home. For example, Euodia and Syntyche are two Philippian Christian women who Paul says, contend with me side by side for the gospel. Paul uses the language of fighting and war. So whatever they’re doing, they’re not sitting around baking cookies, not there’s anything wrong with that! And they’re not folding laundry. Not that there’s anything wrong with that! But they’re out doing what we think of as front lines ministry.
Just to give a quick example, one of the people that I talk about in the book is a woman named Nympha. I almost named her the most important Christian you’ve never heard of. She is somewhere in the Lycus Valley, modern day Turkey, Syria. And she is what we think of as an independent female leader of a house church, because Paul talks about Nympha and the church that meets in her home. And I used to think if you’re a host, you’re just sort of unlocking the door, leaving some snacks and lemonade out, and you’re disappearing. Somewhat like if you’re hosting a Young Life meeting.
But in the ancient world that wouldn’t be true, if you’re the host. A host is a big deal. Think about what Jesus says to the people that host him poorly. He says you should have kissed my feet. You should have anointed me with oil. Hosts have a big responsibility, and often in terms of leadership, because they’re like a small business CEO versus just someone that happens to own a house. So the Nymphas or the Apphias who are partnering with Philemon, or the Priscilla and Aquila, you have these women that seem to be heavily involved in ministry. I really wanted to shine a spotlight on the named women leaders of the early church that most of us have never even heard their names before.
David Capes
Yes. You have whole chapters dedicated to, for example, Phoebe and Prisca and Junia. Lot of times people think of Junia particularly as a male. Some of the earlier translations have this person as a male. So when did that revelation occur where you thought, Junia is not a guy, but Junia is a woman.
Nijay Gupta
If I’m being perfectly honest, before seminary, I probably never read Romans 16 where Junia is mentioned. I would not have known that Junias with a (final letter) S is a male name, and Junia with (a final letter) A is a female name, but that is how it works when we look at the English translations. Here’s what’s interesting. There’s a scholar named Eldon Epp who studied biblical manuscripts that was his expertise, and he was able to trace that Junia was widely known as this person in Rome throughout the Patristic period. Sometime, probably in the 12th or 13th century, there was a tendency in the manuscript tradition to prefer transitioning it to a male name. It wasn’t absolute, but there was some preference that became dominant. That’s because she is referred to as an apostle, and there are
probably some scribes or theologians that thought that’s not possible. So, this must be a man.
And it really wasn’t until the 1970s and 80s, with Bernadette Brooten and Eldon Epp that there was this full recovery of the female identity of this woman, Junia, who’s pretty amazing. Not only was she an apostle, she might have even walked as one of the disciples of Jesus. Some patristic writers speculate that she was part of the 70 that were sent out by Jesus Himself in Luke 10. But she also shared prison time, either with Paul or around the same time as Paul. And here’s what’s interesting, David, (and I didn’t find this in a lot of other books on the subject) women rarely went to prison, and they only went to prison for high crime. You go to prison for crimes that are considered direct threat to the Roman order.
So Junia is doing something pretty bad in the eyes of Rome, to get thrown in prison. And even the term that Paul uses isn’t his normal term for going to prison, which is desmios which means to be in chains. He uses one of my favorite Greek words sunaichmalatos, which means fellow prisoner of war, which means she’s being thrown into a serious incarceration situation [Rom 16:7]. But it’s this idea that she’s doing what we call hard time. You know this from studying Paul, it’s probably the highest mark of a Christian in Paul’s book, to do hard time, to be in chains for Jesus Christ. He only says that about a few
people, Aristarchus, and a couple other people, Epaphras. There are only three people, I think, that he says have done hard time, Andronicus and Junia, a couple other people.
David Capes
One of the things I didn’t know, though I had looked through Romans 16 a number of times, was the amount of women’s names. I didn’t know that 10 out of 26 were women’s names. I thought that’s pretty remarkable when you think about the kind of world into which early Christianity comes. It’s not a matriarchal world. It’s not really a world of equality. It’s a world where it’s strongly dominated by men, at least in the public sphere.
Nijay Gupta
You know, what’s amazing is, I could not find another list in the whole Roman world of nine women in one place with only positive things said about them. Now, you might have a census, you might have a family tree, but nothing like this where it’s not just a list of names. He’s commending these people. I called it an honor roll. He’s saying this is the best of us. They toil for the gospel and they work hard for the Lord. That’s the most common commendation, whether male or female, and I think that’s helpful as we think about what ministry should look like.
David Capes
Dr. Nijay Gupta, thanks for being with us today.
Nijay Gupta
My pleasure.
Lynn Cohick
Hi, I’m Lynn Cohick, Distinguished Professor of New Testament and Director of the Houston
Theological Seminary at Houston Christian University in lovely Houston, Texas.
Sandra Glahn
Hi, I’m Dr. Sandra Guan, Professor of Media Arts and Worship at Dallas Theological Seminary in what today is very hot, Dallas, Texas.
David Capes
Dr. Cohick, Dr. Glahn. Good to see you both, Lynn and Sandra.
Lynn Cohick and Sandra Glahn
Thanks for inviting us.
David Capes
Now I want to talk about this Visual Museum that you started. What is this visual museum all about, Sandra?
