N. T. Wright
Exactly. We probably don’t like half of what this guy is doing. We probably don’t like two thirds of what that guy is doing. So let’s go for the one that we like half of, at least. And so there’s a kind of very low expectation.
David Capes
In a sense, because, you know, as a Christian, that my hope isn’t in this world. Or in those Democrats, Republicans, Independents or whatever the party.
N. T. Wright
Of course, it varies enormously. And I think we say this in the book, that looking from an Australian or British or an American perspective, in a sense, we’re in the lucky position of being able to be part of churches that can preach sermons about all this and that we can teach one another. I remember when I was at the Lambeth conference in 2008, walking along a path behind a group of bishops from Myanmar, who were talking in rather hushed tones about whether there were any Christians on the junta who were running the country. I remember thinking, this is a very different situation for living the kingdom of God, when you’re just anxious about this all the way through.
And of course, across the world, there’s been all sorts of different things, so that our perspective as Westerners, as British or American is a very specialized thing. It’s a luxurious position. But I think I would still say even if one was in Myanmar, or anywhere else where there was severe repression, or in a country like Saudi Arabia, where you wouldn’t even be allowed to celebrate the Eucharist in a hotel
room and that sort of thing. Nevertheless, there is an announcement of the kingdom of God, which must go out, even if only by a few Christians meeting together and maybe praying silently which somehow resonates out into the world of the powers and does stuff which we don’t fully understand.
David Capes
Let’s come back and talk a little bit about the two options. Totalitarian terror, it seems is on one side, and the other is that democracy is not working.
N. T. Wright
Yes, we’ve seen that. I remember the shudder that went through the world at the American election in, was it 2000, when the voting right at the end was stalled. With the hanging chads in Florida. The rest of the world looked on and thought, America, the land of the free, you’re supposed to know how democracy works. And the whole thing was hinging on that.
David Capes
And it was settled ultimately, in the court.
N. T. Wright
It was settled ultimately in the courts. And not everybody liked that, because it went with the politics of that court. We in Britain have had huge dysfunction in our democracy over the last generation. I mean, we’ve had people like Boris Johnson and Liz Truss as prime ministers. We look back and shudder and ask how that happened. And I think we have not educated a new political class. We have not brought on wise, trained leaders to be people of civic responsibility and dignity and good sense. And so, we’ve allowed people with all sorts of motives and different abilities to come in.
I’m not saying that all our politicians are corrupt, because they’re not. I’m not saying they’re all incompetent because they’re not. But we just haven’t got a range of people like we used to have who could run for office. And you think, well, that’s a safe pair of hands. I may disagree with what he or she says at certain points, but at least there’s a maturity, there’s a seasoned wisdom there. They know their way around. We just don’t seem to have that. And we’re partly in trouble of course, because horrible things are happening in the world.
David Capes
Ukraine, Israel, Rafa.
N. T. Wright
I mean, we all sort of half bought the lie that we’d had the end of history with the end of the Cold War. That everything was going to be nice liberal democracies from now on. And Hillary Clinton with the Arab Spring, saying it’s important to be on the right side of history. Well excuse me, how do we know which way history is going? We don’t. And the idea that the whole world is drifting in the direction of liberal democracy, and we just have to help them a bit. That is incredibly naive, though. Then to rearticulate what a Christian vision might be, that’s really, really important. That’s what we’re trying to do.
David Capes
How’s the book done so far? What kind of feedback are you getting?
N. T. Wright
Yes, good feedback, and some very nice blurbs from some quite important people.
David Capes
Well Nicholas Wolterstorff, that’s not a bad recommendation.
N. T. Wright
And Miroslav Volf and others. Yes, absolutely. Thanks, guys.
David Capes
Yeah, that’s right. And these guys know political theology.
N. T. Wright
Absolutely. The book has been out slightly longer in Britain than here in America. And we’ve had some good feedback in the UK as well. In fact, I was going to be doing a lecture based on this in Parliament three weeks ago, and then that was when I got sick. I think people have been grateful to put some cards on the table. And to show that it is possible and even desirable, for Christians to have this conversation.
David Capes
We shouldn’t be shut out of the conversation. And we shouldn’t step back as if we don’t have anything to add.
N. T. Wright
Exactly. And there are lots of devout Christians who do go into politics, and whether they’re particularly competent politicians or not, they want to do the right thing. And they want to say their prayers and make wise decisions. But I don’t sense that our traditions on either side of the Atlantic, have given them too much help over recent years. Except help of the wrong sort, of pressure groups pushing hard in a particular direction where they feel oh, do better, go along with these guys. Otherwise, I won’t get elected. No. So the standing back and discerning wise ways forward, that’s so important. But we need to have structures in place to facilitate that. Otherwise, you can be swept away by the new tyrannies or whatever.
David Capes
And the old statement power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely. So that’s part of the challenge, because I think a number of people who are genuine, deep thinking, abiding Christians, end up there. But it’s hard to stay where you want to stay because of what power does to you.
N. T. Wright
Well that’s absolutely right. But I mean, the problem then, is that many Christians have retreated from the idea of power all together. And I’ve been in some circles where the very word power is a dirty word.
We don’t believe in power. You know, we believe in weakness. Well, yes. That’s what Paul says in 2 Corinthians, right. God’s power is made perfect in our weakness. However, ever since Genesis 1 and Psalm 8 God wants wise human beings to look after his world, to share in the work of stewarding creation.
David Capes
Governing the world.
N. T. Wright
Exactly. Because when I’ve written about the Kingdom of God, I remember one person coming back and saying, if there’s a problem I just have to say, there isn’t a problem anymore because God’s in charge. The answer is the way God is in charge is by working through wise, obedient, humble human beings. And this means that the idea of either God does it or we do it is simply wrong. But we are not used to thinking in terms of basically Trinitarian terms; God the Father working by the Spirit through obedient wise humans, to further the purpose and mission and pattern of the Son. And that’s how it ought to work.
David Capes
The son, who is the Suffering Servant. He is the servant of all. He’s the one who will ultimately suffer (for others).
N. T. Wright
And there are two passages I go back to when people asked me about political theology. One is John 18 and 19, where Jesus is arguing with Pontius Pilate about Kingdom truth and power. The kingdom of God and the kingdom of Caesar slugging it out intellectually. It’s amazing. The other is Mark 10, where James and John want to be at Jesus’ right and left. And Jesus says listen, the rulers of this world boss and bully people. They get their own way by forcing you. We’re not going to do it like that. We’re going to do it the other way up. If you if anyone wants to be great, they must be your servant, because the Son of Man came to give his life as a ransom for many.
And so many political theologians have taken the first bit and forgotten the atonement theology. So many devout Christians have taken the atonement theology out of Mark 10:45 and have forgotten that that comes at the heart of a statement of political theology.
And then we just haven’t seen the question. What does it look like when servant leadership is really being acted out in a community? I suspect there’s lots of places in the church, which hadn’t even started to ask that question. And maybe it’s time we did.
David Capes
Well you and Michael Byrd have given us some good political theology to think about in a time when I think we have a lot of confusion and we have some bad political theology being bandied about. So now you’re going to help set it right. Thank you for being with us today on The Stone Chapel Podcast.
N. T. Wright
Thank you. My pleasure.
