Michael Bird
I think a number of things. We are living in a world that is becoming gradually polarized between autocracies and liberal democracies. And the autocracies include places like Russia, China, Iran, Venezuela. It’s a very concerning trend. And liberal democracies are tearing themselves apart over things such as immigration, over debates and discussions about transgenderism, or the best way to get the economy up and going. Or high inflation, and in some cases even basic rights, where the government should be more intrusive and really having a more activist role in people’s lives about what they can and can’t do. So, that is the real problem we have in the West. We are so fragmented and fratricidal and certainly not in a position to face up to this growing threat of an alliance of autocracies which are engaged in very diabolical and despotic acts across the world. Whether we’re looking at Iran or Russia or China, there is a very clear alliance of malicious and malevolent despotic regimes who are teaming up and their ultimate aim is to destroy the West. Or at least to create more of a multipolar world, rather than a bipolar world with the US and its allies. I think that’s what’s happening in the geopolitical realm. But we tend to focus more on the trees than the actual forest which would focus on the debate that we have in front of us. Whether that’s on Trump, Roe v Wade, or the odd riot, the odd protest somewhere in France. It’s a very difficult age that we live in.
David Capes
You use the term earlier “liberal democracies,” and I know we’ve probably got some listeners that will be a little concerned about that word “liberal”. Define that for us the way you’re using it.
Michael Bird
By liberal democracy, I mean the view that government exists to enhance rather than undermine the basic rights of people. It may refer to the right to the pursuit of happiness, economic freedom, religious freedom, freedom of association, freedom of speech, freedom to petition and protest. It refers to the basic rights that you know we have because of a certain libertarian tradition that’s grown up in the West. And we could talk about everything from the Magna Carta to the rights of man, all the way through to the U.S. Bill of Rights. The sort of libertarian tradition that recognizes that government’s role is to enhance rather than undermine human freedoms. That’s what I mean by liberal democracy.
I’m not talking about a tribal affiliation, about being politically liberal or progressive. I’m talking about the political ideology that government’s aim should be to maximize the freedom and choices of its citizens, rather than undermining them. Democracy simply means that government works best with the consent
of the govern. So, it’s the people, not a cohort of clerics, not a European Council, not a particular committee for public safety. It’s the people at large who should be deciding who their leaders are. So that’s what I mean by liberal democracy.
David Capes
I’ve heard more and more people here in the US say we’re not being represented by our representatives. You know, we need to have another Boston Tea Party. You’re probably familiar with that from your study of history. There are concerns more and more that people who are at the levels of making those kinds of decisions are not looking after the welfare of the people. They’re not really connected to the good of others. You mentioned some things earlier and are there any other things that you talk about in your book that we really need to focus on. What do we not need to focus on? What do we need to focus on?
Michael Bird
Well, I think the things we need to focus on is having a very sound and comprehensive analysis of biblical teaching about how the people of God relate to the institutions of government. Now, whether that’s the monarchy in his ancient Israel, whether it’s Daniel under King Nebuchadnezzar, whether it’s the Judean exiles returning to Babylon, and how they relate to the Persian authorities. Whether it’s Jesus of Nazareth under Roman rule, we’ve got to think biblically about the different ways that the people of God have to relate to governing authority. And what we can learn from that in the present.
The danger is rather that we get our politics already established from our parents, or our culture. We become very tribalized, and then we just go to the Bible, looking for a few Bible verses to prove what we’ve already decided about politics and political theory. I think we’ve got to go back to the Bible.
And whether you lean to the left or lean to the right, be willing to have your political views, your political inclinations, challenged by what you read in Scripture. Rather than something that you can add a footnote to and say, yeah, you see, Jesus believed in progressive or libertarian government, or something along those lines. We’ve got to be open to the prospect of not being nakedly tribal, but trying to think not as a Republican, not as a Democrat, but as a follower of Jesus. That really needs to be prominent.
David Capes
You and Tom Wright talk here in your book about times to submit and times to resist. Wow. I mean, when you think about resistance against totalitarianism, resistance against these awkward, unjust laws that are sometimes there. Have you seen that kind of resistance among Christians in a positive way of late in Australia, or maybe you’ve read about it in the US?
Michael Bird
I’ve just finished reading an Autobiography of a Czechoslovakian Catholic priest called Tomáš Halík. He was a priest in what was then Czechoslovakia under communism, where the Catholic Church was very heavily monitored. It was very heavily managed or influenced through the mechanism of the state. And he had his own underground resistance movement in Czechoslovakia, so he was providing, I think, a good example of how you can resist an autocratic, authoritarian state. That’s probably the most recent example I’ve read of in living memory.
Now, we can talk to many Christians who have come out of China about what the church there is doing. I read a very good book by Wang Yi. He’s a reformed pastor, and his book is called Faithful Disobedience, and it’s basically his writings about church and state relationships. And he’s doing this from the perspective of someone who leads a church in China. The church was then shut down, and he’s currently in prison as a political prisoner, and he’s writing about church-state relationships.
It’s very different, like when I read my American friends, when they write about church-state relationships, usually they focus on two things. Trump and Roe v. Wade. That’s all they’re interested in, Trump and Roe v. Wade. Now I understand you’ve got to deal with the dumpster fire that’s in your front yard. Whether that’s Trump, MAGA, fear of a very progressive Democrat government, as you might find
in California, becoming nationalized. Or, long term debates about women and abortion.
I understand these are things you’ve got to deal with, but that’s not the only two things you’ve got to consider when it comes to creating a political theology, thinking about church and state. That’s why I really do recommend that people read about political theology from outside your tribe, from outside your
country. Read the autobiography of Tomáš Halík about being a Catholic priest who’s part of the underground resistance against communism. Read about Pastor Wang Yi and his call for faithful disobedience under Communist China. Read about those people who have also done great things in politics, like an early leader of the United Nations, Charles Malik, who was a Lebanese Christian theologian. Read about him. Now, even if you don’t like the UN or you don’t know where Lebanon is.
David Capes
It would be good for us to read about these things.
Michael Bird
Yes. Read about political theology from people outside your own little tribe or bubble. And even if you don’t agree with it, that’s fine. You will come to appreciate different perspectives. And in other parts of the world, there are other problems going on, often bigger problems. I’ve been talking to a theologian recently about the plight of the church in Myanmar, the country formerly known as Burma, and what they’re facing is some incredibly difficult problems. It’s real, real persecution, which make our debates over wearing masks in church seem silly in comparison.
David Capes
Yes. I recently met a pastor from there who came to the US for training. Going back is going to be very difficult for him knowing what he will be facing. So, works of political theology, and this book is a great place to start. The book is Jesus and the Powers by N. T. Wright and Michael Byrd. The subtitle is Christian Political Witness in an Age of Totalitarian Terror and Dysfunctional Democracies. The book
seems to be doing well.
Michael Bird
Yes, it’s doing well. And certainly in North America since it’s the season of your electoral cycle where it’s good to read books on political theology. Christians can think deeply, profoundly, faithfully about what it means to have a kingdom perspective in how they exercise their political freedoms in America.
David Capes
Yes, what does it mean to follow Jesus in the middle of all of this. Dr, Michael Bird, thanks for being with us today here on The Stone Chapel Podcast.
Michael Bird
David, great to be with you and all your listeners.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
