David Capes
You didn’t say, I’ll do chapter one, you do chapter two? I’ll do chapter three. You didn’t do it like that?
John Walton
No, not at all.
Aubrey Buster
John, just because of the order in which he had already been working on the project, generally wrote what he wanted to write. Then left what he didn’t want to write. Then I wrote what I wanted to write. And then I also did the text critical. We also did it in conversation with each other, both written and we met weekly to discuss different passages. So, the product is genuinely blended. As I’ve been reading the final proof several times, I’ve often forgotten myself which sections I wrote or John wrote. There was one instance where I came to John and was like, I just don’t agree with this translation anymore, and we realized I had written it, so it was a blended process. I think those who know John’s writing style and maybe those who know mine, might be able to pick out different sections.
John Walton
I think that would be difficult, because I can’t tell anymore when I’m reading the proofs. I can’t tell which one of us wrote them. I remember having certain ideas. But even then, as I framed ideas, sometimes she was able to write them up in better ways. And so, I really can’t tell the difference.
David Capes
When we think about the book of Daniel as 12 chapters, the first part of it seems to be very different than the last part. How do you describe the two different pieces of the book, Aubrey?
Aubrey Buster
One through six contain the court tales. These are stories of the lives of the protagonist, Daniel, and his three friends. These are the ones that you might have heard about in Sunday school, if that was something that you did. The great stories of the golden statue and the lion’s den. Daniel refusing to eat the food of the king. These stories likely served the Judeans in exile and in the centuries afterwards, as they thought about what it meant to be a Judean, to be a Yahweh follower in exile, and what it meant for Yahweh to be their God.
In that context, it also introduces the protagonist, Daniel, who’s presented as this wise character who, when he petitions God, God responds. And then the second half of the book contain apocalyptic visions that are attributed to Daniel. This is the weird part of the book, the one where he sees dream visions, monsters coming out of the sea. He receives a reading from the reliable document, how we translate the Book of Truth, sometimes called, that gives some insight into historical events taking place between the fourth and second centuries, BCE. So, these are two very different types of literature, but they’re generally unified by the character Daniel and his three friends,
David Capes
Apocalyptic literature is one of those genres of literature that’s often misunderstood and misinterpreted. John, you’re great about seeing things within a cultural context and trying to understand it within that context. Not just trying to say, well, it reads like today’s newspaper. It reads like something that was going to be happening now in world affairs.
John Walton
And that’s one of the tricky parts. People tend to read the apocalyptic as a history of the future, but it’s just as problematic when they read the court tales as if it’s just a flat-out history of the past. In both cases, it’s more of an interpretation of the patterns that develop. In the court tales it’s the patterns that we see as God has worked with his people in the past and in the apocalyptic how those patterns unfold into the future.
And in that sense, I think many times people come into the apocalyptic visions expecting something that it’s really not. I was really surprised as we worked together on it to discover how much apocalyptic literature there is, between 300 BC and 300 AD, both Jewish and Christian apocalyptic. I hadn’t worked in apocalyptic literature that much. And certainly, as you mentioned, if we’re going to look at this literature in its cultural context, we have to understand that wide breadth of literature and look at Daniel in light of that.
David Capes
Some people have tried to make a connection between prophecy and apocalyptic. One scholar said that the mother of apocalyptic is prophecy, that it all starts with prophecy. And there’s a type of a prophetic literature. Do you see that kind of move, or do you see it as something completely separate?
John Walton
That’s actually something we worked on quite a bit, because I started out putting together a chart of differences between them. And then Aubrey suggested a lot of very important revisions to that. And then I came back and we kind of developed that chart together of similarities and differences, because again, it really takes careful thought to work out both of them fairly.
Aubrey Buster
I think it’s fair to say that the apocalyptic writers are clearly using the prophetic literature. They’re reading it and adapting the formulas. They’re interpreters of it, but in a very different mode than the prophets themselves. We don’t get that central feature of God speaking through the Prophet’s mouth. There’s a mediated messenger. This is something that we see in some of the prophetic literature, but it’s not a standard characteristic.
I’ll also say, and this is something I’ve been working on recently. Some of the conversation about whether apocalyptic is related to prophecy has to do with conversations emerging in the early 20th century where apocalyptic was viewed as a devolution from the prophetic word and was viewed as a lesser class of literature. Some of the attempts to connect apocalyptic to prophecy have been part of an attempt to revive the apocalyptic literature as a kind of genuine and valuable revelation of God. I think there’s both the ancient context piece and there’s also the context in which our scholarship occurs.
John Walton
And one of the distinctives that I found most important was that the prophets regularly, consistently throughout, are champions of the covenant. Everything that they do is focused on the covenant, whether it’s how the Israelites have been unfaithful or how God will be faithful in restoration. The judgment connected to covenant curses, it’s very covenant related. And the apocalyptic is not at all. The apocalyptic literature is very Kingdom oriented. What’s the kingdom of God and when is it coming? and so it’s moved out of that covenant phase. It was very important in the prophets to a much different kind of discussion.
David Capes
There’s a lot of emphasis in the prophets on ethics and behavior and activity. Do you see the same kinds of things in the apocalyptic literature, like in Daniel? Is there emphasis upon action or behavior?
Aubrey Buster
In prophecy, there’s a sense that you’re supposed to return to following the covenant. If you act in this particular way, a future event may or may not happen to you. Generally speaking, do this, return to the Lord, follow the law, as the Lord has said. And the kind of Deuteronomic injunction, choose life or choose death according to these covenant promises. We don’t get this sense in the apocalyptic that if you act in this righteous way, then this future event will not come to pass. There’s a deterministic element to the apocalyptic literature which says this is the righteous way to act. This terrible thing is coming upon you anyway, but here’s the right way to weather this event correctly, to reveal yourself to be one of the righteous and one of the wise.
John Walton
Okay, so the ethics in the prophets is due to the Torah. They’re following Torah, faithful to Torah, and there’s an ethical element built into that, although there’s much more to it of course. But that’s where the ethical drive comes from, faithfulness to the covenant. And of course, since the covenant isn’t prominent in apocalyptic, we don’t see that there. Instead, the ethical demands are placed on Empire, and Empire is critiqued in terms of its justice or injustice, usually the latter. And so it’s a change of focus that way.
David Capes
In Daniel 7, there’s a new sheriff in town, there’s a new king coming, and there’s a new kingdom coming.
John Walton
Well, the kingdom of God that’s coming. The role of the one like a Son of Man, is one of the
controversies that we spent quite a bit of time on.
David Capes
And I hope you solved that for everybody!
John Walton
Wow, not exactly.
We do is offer very thorough analysis of all of the different positions, strengths and weaknesses, and then we make our suggestions. And of course, any suggestions, since these are controversial passages, are going to have strengths and weaknesses, and so we weigh those. We did come up with a different interpretation of Son of Man, but we think that it’s plausible and defensible, and we’ll see how people respond to it.
David Capes
I’ll figure out whether or not you guys got it right in my commentary on Matthew that I’m working on! So some final thoughts. You’re done with the first part of the commentary, chapters one to six, but then seven to twelve is yet to come, but we hope, in short order, that’ll be the case. We wish you well in this commentary. I look forward to seeing it when it’s released. I know you’ll both be glad and be glad having done it. Dr John Walton, Dr Aubrey, Buster, thanks for being with us today on “The Stone Chapel Podcast.”
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
