Frank Viola
Yes, I believe very strongly, as do many other scholars, that John labored in Ephesus. His letters that he wrote 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, were addressed there. And here’s the thing that’s fascinating. In today’s world, we have Christian leaders that compete with one another, and a lot of them don’t have anything to do with one another. In the New Testament story, you have Paul of Tarsus, and of course, his mission was primarily to the Gentiles. And then you had Peter and James and John, and their mission was primarily to the Jews. But here’s the interesting thing, as you continue the story, you find that Peter travels where Paul was, and he begins to labor there. And it’s no problem. There’s no competition.
In fact, when he writes his letter, he says wonderful things about Paul. And he says that the letters of Paul are scripture! That’s coming from Peter. And then you have John, who, again, he’s one of the brothers whose ministry is primarily to the Jewish people. He’s writing letters in Ephesus to Ephesus. And so, you have this cross-pollination, this cross-mingling of workers. They had different callings to different people groups, but they’re now interwoven, and they’re laboring in the same fields. But there’s no problem. And it’s a beautiful expression of the unity of the Body of Christ and the unity of Christian workers.
David Capes
That’s where we need to get back to again. I think we’re not there right now. One of my mentors, years ago, was a fellow named Larry Hurtado, who passed away in 2019. He used to talk about how these early Christians were very mobile, and they were networkers. They understood networking before there was an internet at all. They would connect. They would work together, fellow workers, synergoi as you mentioned earlier. They wrote a lot of materials. They were very bookish people, he said. Compared to a lot of religions at the time who were more about sacrificing to the Roman gods and such. This was a faith that grew, like Judaism, very much upon the back of texts and writing and reading and the
explanation of these texts.
I think what you’ve done with your story is you’ve helped us to see that and to hear that and experience that in a fresh way. God has hard-wired us to be storytellers and to be story hearers and derive meaning and purpose and direction through story. We see that in the modern world, but we also see that in the ancient world as well. Now you’re launching a podcast in conjunction with this book. Tell us about that.
Frank Viola
I plan to launch it in a few months. I want to give some time for the book to distribute and for people to read it and get the message. But the podcast will supplement it. It’s a spoken podcast, but it will have video elements. I have a person who’s going to be working on the video illustrations that go along with it. I do tell the story in conferences and seminars, and that’s what this podcast is going to be based on. When you tell it through the spoken word it’s a lot more riveting and electrifying than the written word.
Now, as fascinating as the written word can be, (and from the feedback I’ve gotten the book does enthrall people) you don’t have the raw energy as when you’re preaching or teaching. This form of the podcast is going to have that element, the spoken word. It’s not going to be an exact duplicate of what’s in the book, but it will take parts of it, and enlarge it. So it’s going to be a supplement, and I think it’s going to be helpful to the Lord’s people.
David Capes
I think even though we’re literate people, and we read all the time, there’s an element and a side to us that loves to listen and process through hearing. We love movies and we love stories that are told in movies. And I do think that we’re close enough to our beginnings to still be a people who loves to hear these stories. As I’ve heard other people say, I’d rather hear a good sermon than read one. Reading sermons to me are pretty dull and uninteresting. But when a sermon is done well, it can be very inspiring, very moving. And the same thing is true with the spoken word.
Frank Viola
Absolutely, so that’s why we’re going to do the podcast. And I just think that knowing the story of the first century church will unlock the New Testament more than any other thing that I have found. I have most of the renowned commentaries on my bookshelf. I use them for linguistic studies and for manuscript variations and things like that. But even the way the commentaries are built, they’re put together in the same order that the New Testament is put in, and so you still don’t get the whole story.
What this book really seeks to do is put readers right there in the middle of it, first person, first hand. It’s all told in that present tense, like you’re there. It’s not imaginary, it’s not fiction. It’s all rooted in the most current scholarship we have. And some of those scholars who were kind enough to endorse the book were my historical advisors. They were very helpful. You know, we would push back on one another on some things, and sometimes they would convince me of certain things, and sometimes I would convince them.
It was interesting because there are parts of the story that are open to debate. And I make that very clear, in the notes of the book. Scholars disagree over this particular thing, but here’s why I’ve concluded it this way. And here’s some scholars who I cite. N.T. Wright, was a big help as I was going through different parts of the story over the years. We would go back and forth on various parts of it. I just want it to be a service to the body of Christ. One thing I will also mention that really stood out to me that I hadn’t seen before is that women play a prominent part in the entire story.
David Capes
They do.
Frank Viola
Jesus relied on them throughout his ministry and we have some of their names, and that becomes clear in the story. And then Paul did as well. And it’s fascinating, you know, because sometimes they’re relegated to second-class citizens. The stories are always about the men. But no, the women play a dominating role in many parts of the story.
And boy, Paul of Tarsus, I think he thought the world of Lydia. She basically underwrote his ministry and got him out of some financial jams when he was at the lowest point of his life. And you learn who she is. You learn her history, you get a feel for how she lived. Because we do have lots of clues that are given to us in the New Testament about this woman and her role in the church in Philippi. But again, you don’t see those things unless you put the story together.
David Capes
A lot of people don’t recognize the fact that the first witnesses to the resurrection of Jesus were women. They were the first ones to see him and to understand that the grave was empty. And that was very unlikely for that day—[because women were not considered reliable witnesses]–, but it was true. The New Testament and I think Jesus’s ministry carves out a special place for women to be elevated in the world, out of that second class citizenship to be full and complete contributors to the kingdom of God.
Frank Viola, thanks so much for being with us. We’ve been talking to Frank about his book, newly published book, “The Untold Story of the New Testament Church, Revised and Expanded.” Thanks, Frank once again.
Frank Viola
Thank you so much.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
