N.T. Wright
Well, yes, which is difficult. From one point of view, that could easily tip over into a kind of radical dualism where we say in that case, we’re just going to be cross-grained and awkward and shout at everybody about everything and do our own thing and have no truck with these people down the street. Paul is never like that. “I became all things to all people, that I might, by all means, win some” and if an unbeliever invites you to dinner and you’re minded to go, that’s fine. And then there are rules for how you might or might not treat the food that’s put in front of you, but here’s how to navigate those situations. Paul isn’t shrinking away from that.
Where Christians have been aware of the danger of compromise then often, as with the closed brethren movement in the 19th and early 20th century, they’ve gone into a little Holy huddle. Where they and only they are the real believers, and where there is literally somebody at the door checking you out and seeing if you’re allowed in or not. If you’re not known to be a believer, or possibly coming with letters of reference from another similar community elsewhere, in which case, fine. Okay, welcome. You’re a brother. You’re a sister. But without that, we’re not sure if you’re real or not, and sadly, some people play that game these days.
I had an email just a day or two ago from somebody warning me about the dangers of being associated with somebody who’s actually a friend of mine of 20 years standing. I won’t name him, but saying actually, I don’t think he’s a Christian. Excuse me, I know this guy. We’ve prayed together; we’ve worked together. If he’s not a Christian, then I don’t know what is; so you can be too defensive. But when we avoid being defensive, we haven’t really developed the navigational skills of avoiding the over defensiveness at the same time as avoiding the casual compromise where anything goes, because we’re now legal. So, who cares? It’s all fair in love and war and religion.
David Capes
We’ve sometimes moved from now we’re legal to, let’s run the place. That’s the other danger. We don’t want to just be legal. We want to be in charge. Now we think [culture] should reflect our own positions [and worldview].
N.T. Wright
Which is interesting, because certainly in America, I think it’s even in your constitution, the Church and State-never the two shall meet.
David Capes
There are statements like that though they’re disputed.
N.T. Wright
Well, this is the thing. They obviously come from a time when the founding fathers and others like them had escaped religious persecution in the old world, in Europe and Britain, and so they didn’t want to set up a similar system over here. Everything has to be separate, although from what little I know about the original New England colonies, there were Presbyterian bits geographically and Episcopalian bits geographically, etc. So already there’s some navigation going on there.
But I was always taught as a young Christian that the Sermon on the Mount is not an agenda for parliament to put into the statute book. This is about personal devotion to Jesus and following him, etc. And I still want to say partly that there is a truth in that. But I do also want to say that actually, the Western world, at its best, has tried to instantiate care for the poor, education, medicine, etc. In other words, things which are ruling the world from one point of view.
But then you run into and it’s almost always my go to passage Mark 10, where James and John say, we want to sit at your right and your left. And Jesus said, you have no idea what you’re talking about. And then he says, Listen, the rulers of the Gentiles boss and bully and get their way by beating people up. We’re going to do it the other way. The one who wants to be great among you must be your servant.
Now, if the people who say, because we’re Christians, we should be ruling the world, would actually take that seriously, then the way you rule the world is the Sermon on the Mount way. The meek, the mourners, the hungry for justice people, the peacemakers, the pure in heart, the poor in spirit. Now, if people were so determined to rule the world in Jesus’ way that they embraced those values, I would say fantastic. You may not get elected to Congress, but my goodness, wherever you are, you will be bringing the rule of God to bear, and that’s what’s happened. I mean, Tom Holland’s book Dominion is very clear.
David Capes
That book is fantastic. It’s a great story of how what we think today and how we think today in our culture has been largely fashioned by Christianity. We may have left the metaphysics behind, but we still embrace much of what has brought us to this moment.
N.T. Wright
Absolutely. And I remember, I think it was Bishop James Jones in England making the point very powerfully in a lecture where people say, Oh, we live in an amoral age. He said, absolutely not. Think about South Africa. The fall of apartheid was because the world as a whole looked and said, you cannot treat people like that just because they’re from a different ethnic group.
Now, in the ancient world, who cared about that. It’s not a big deal. The world actually has, even when being officially atheist, has often though not always, embraced a great many things which actually do come to it from the Christian background. Problem is, as Pope Benedict said probably on more than one occasion, once you stop believing in the Judeo-Christian values, which underpin Western civilization, as you said, the metaphysical bits and pieces, then watch out in case you’re cutting off the root of the tree. Because if that happens, you may get fruit next year, but probably not the year after that. And that, that’s a real challenge.
David Capes
That’s a general erosion that might take a decade or half a lifetime to take place.
N.T. Wright
Exactly. And it may be a very slow erosion to start off with, and then quite suddenly, the tree will blow over in a gale. And people say, oh, look, it was rotten at the core, and we didn’t realize.
David Capes
Yes, it’s interesting. Your whole thesis reminds me of the fact that it seems like Paul had his biggest problems with the Corinthian church, because they were comfortable, because they were sitting there. It was the other churches that he said, the testimony of your faith is being broadcast throughout the world.
N.T. Wright
Absolutely!
David Capes
He said I’m so proud of you. You’re great!
N.T. Wright
And that was to the Thessalonians, and they were suffering. They were being persecuted. They’re presumably losing their jobs or having bricks through their windows or whatever. Of course, in Galatia, he’s pretty cross with them. He’s teasing them in some ways and trying to woo them round. But yes, Philippians, Thessalonians, Ephesians, Colossians, they are all facing all sorts of challenges. But not the comfortable one.
David Capes
The challenge of being too comfortable.
N.T. Wright
The challenge of being too comfortable. And of course, the silly thing is, I don’t want to be
uncomfortable. I like being able to live in a funny little house with churches and chapels within easy walking distance. Just take my choice and go off to Evensong here, or to a Eucharist there. That’s very nice. Thank you. And I don’t want the secret police waiting at the door to photograph me and then warn me that if I turn up too often, they’re going to deport me or something. But I remember ages ago hearing a sermon in which somebody said, supposing they were putting people on trial for being Christians, would there be enough evidence to convict you now? Oh, my goodness, isn’t that interesting?
David Capes
Yes, I remember hearing that back during the Jesus Movement. I think that’s where it started, back in the 60s or 70s. Would there’d be enough evidence to convict you? It’s going to be a great lecture. I look forward to it. For those of you that cannot be here, it’ll be available on our YouTube channel. We hope you’ll check it out there. Tom Wright, thanks for being with us today here at The Stone Chapel.
N.T. Wright
Thank you very much. Good to be with you.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
