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You can find previous episodes of “The Stone Chapel Podcast” at Lanier Theological Library.
“The Stone Chapel Podcast” is part of the ChurchLeaders Podcast Network.
This episode has been edited for clarity and space.
Jason Maston
Hi, I’m Jason Maston, Professor of Theology at Houston Christian University and Associate Dean in the School of Christian thought.
David Capes
Dr. Jason Maston, Jason, good to see you. Welcome to your first appearance on “The Stone Chapel Podcast.”
Jason Maston
I’m happy to be here. Thanks for having me.
David Capes
You’ve been on Exegetically Speaking with us before, so I thought you’d been on this podcast also. But since you haven’t, the signature question that I ask everybody is, for those who don’t know Jason Maston, who is he?
Jason Maston
I have been at Houston Christian now for 10 years, served in a variety of capacities. Prior to that, I was in Scotland for five years where I taught at the Highland Theological College. I did my PhD through Durham University under Francis Watson. So, my heart is still a bit in Scotland. My wife and I moved there almost 20 years ago and spent just shy of 10 years there.
I have three kids, all of them were born in Scotland as well. My oldest is going off to college, so I’m feeling the nerves about how to help him make that transition. He’ll be a senior in high school this year and we’re in the chaos of that. Now I share every parent’s concern when they show up in my office. I ask myself, is this going to work and all that?!
David Capes
That’s a tough season for everybody. It’s tough on the parents. It’s tough on the young folk, but it’s necessary. It’s just part of what it means to grow up. I didn’t realize you were in Scotland for 10 years, but you were at Highland Theological College. That is where I first met Mike Bird, when he was teaching many years ago. You two have a lot in common. Not only Highland Theological College, but also you are the editors for a new book that I’ve got sitting here called “Five Views on the Gospel.” It’s part of the counterpoint series that Zondervan has been publishing. There are some fascinating titles in this series. I looked at a few of them.
One is called, “The Four Views on Hell.” Another one, “The Four Views on Do Muslims, Christians and Jews Worship the Same God.” Two views on homosexuality and three views on the rapture. Let me ask this. I thought we all knew what the gospel was. We’ve been talking about it. We’ve been evangelizing using it. Tell us about why this book.
Jason Maston
The book’s origins lie in a debate that exploded right at the start of COVID. We all remember February and March of 2020. We asked what is going on here? The world’s shutting down around us. And during that time, there was a sermon delivered that challenged the views of Scot McKnight and Matthew Bates.
Yes. It caused a lot of controversy. And there was back and forth in blogs, and here I am on the sidelines. I’ve got no dog in this fight, in the sense of publications or anything like that. But I’m trying to imagine what would somebody in my Sunday school class think when they hear about it. Or a pastor who maybe went to seminary 15-20, years ago, has kept up with a little bit of the literature, but isn’t really sure what’s going on. Then all of a sudden they’re being told by one group, these people are heretics, or this view about the Gospel is wrong.
And it made me think that what’s needed is some place where people could come together and lay out the views [on the gospel]. Then let a reader decide for themselves, which one captures the biblical text the best and captures God’s activity and the human plight the best. That’s the origins of the book. How do we take this debate that’s happening among scholars and educated lay people, educated pastors, and give the average Christian, the average pastor, a chance to make sense of what they’re seeing.
David Capes
So this book begins on the internet because it started as a sermon that was published on the internet.
Jason Maston
It was published, and you can go read it. Then there was this back and forth between Scot McKnight and Greg Gilbert who is the man who preached the original sermon. Matthew Bates gets involved in it, and various other figures as well.
I emailed Mike Burton. I said there’s something here. There’s a chance to say to people, this is what’s going on. We can create an atmosphere where the views could be presented, the reader could know the strengths and weaknesses of each and make a decision for themselves about what they think.
David Capes
You guys and all the writers make the case that the context that we live in really determines how we understand the gospel. If a person is living in poverty in South America, they might read the gospel and see Jesus as more of a liberator. And that’s a position taken by one of the authors. But if you’re checking your 401K every day, and things are looking good in the stock market and life is pretty easy for you, then things might look different to you. So whatever need we feel, and how we understand that need, actually determines how we read these texts. So, context matters.
Jason Maston
Yes, I think it does. Particularly to the views of Shively Smith and Julia Ma. But Scott McKnight also brings this up that our context really does influence some things. I do think there’s deep truth that the gospel really does speak into all of our context, all of our situations. And those of us that are more introspective are going to find help differently than others who are worried about where their meal comes from and the way in which God redeems them from tyrant governments. And I do think it is one of the strengths of this book. It gives people the chance to think through those issues in a way that doesn’t require them to be angry at the other side or call the other side heretics.
David Capes
Yes, and I really appreciate that! My sense is that this is a Protestant book, and that each of them respects the other. They have real disagreements. And part of what I like about this series is, not only does a writer get to present their ideas, but they also get to respond to somebody else’s chapter. There’s a kind of a back and forth on each position.
Let’s talk about the five positions, the five views. We’re not going to give away the book. But I think we could epitomize, can we say that. We can epitomize the thinkers and the positions here. You talked about Scot McKnight. Let’s start with him.
Jason Maston
Scot McKnight has the first chapter, and we led with him. Because it’s kind of his idea that has generated a lot of the discussion in the last 10 or 15 years or so. Scot McKnight is connected with us here at HCU. He teaches in our DMin Program, and also does some work in one of the universities in England. His book, The King Jesus Gospel, which came out about 10 years ago was really a starting point for a lot of this discussion, and this book is a product of. What McKnight presents in the Five Views book is a view that’s rooted in Scripture’s storyline that places an emphasis on the identity of Jesus as Messiah and as Lord. Or as he says, as king.
What McKnight really wants to emphasize and draw attention to is that Jesus shows up in the gospel. He announces the kingdom of God, and that matters for how we understand what it means to speak of the gospel. It’s about kingdom, it’s about kingship. He traces the ways in which gospel language is used in the gospels and Paul’s letters and emphasizes what we find there is kingship ideas. It’s about a proclamation of a ruler of the divine who rules over us as our gracious King. That’s what McKnight wants to emphasize.
David Capes
And we are therefore the subjects of that King. It’s difficult for us in the U.S. because we don’t live in a monarchy. Historically, much of the world has lived with monarchies, and so I think it might have a little bit more traction with them.
All right. Another person is Michael Horton, who’s actually coming here to lecture at the Lanier Theological Library in November of 2026. Tell us about Michael Horton.
