Jason Maston
Michael Horton is at Westminster Seminary in California. He’s a systematic theologian. He has written a number of really excellent works in systematic theology. People may know him from his two-volume justification book that was published by Zondervan a few years ago. It’s a really important piece on what justification means. Horton represents for us the Reformation gospel. Anyone that knows Reformation issues also knows that there’s differences even between Luther and Calvinism.
But what he tries to capture here is an explanation of the gospel that most of us are probably more familiar with. It’s a story of redemption of us as sinners, human beings. It’s a plight that we’re sinners, and God is redeeming us from that through the death and resurrection of Christ. The gospel is good news that our sins can be forgiven. That God will look on us favorably in Christ and forgive us of our sins, justify us, so that we can have eternal life. Horton’s position is probably one that most of us are familiar with from our churches.
David Capes
I would say that’s probably been the most influential set of ideas. Let’s talk briefly about the Wesleyan gospel and David de Silva. David is an interesting guy.
Jason Maston
Yes. David is at Ashland Theological Seminary. His book on introducing the Apocrypha is absolutely incredible. I tell all my classes that if they’re looking for something to understand the Apocrypha, that’s the place to go.
De Silva is a biblical scholar and a historian, he’s a really good theologian too. He presents this beautiful account of the Wesleyan tradition. He draws heavily on Wesley’s own work, on his published sermons and bringing those to light. It’s this remarkable piece. It’s beautifully written, really enjoyable. Wesley runs through the footnotes. Almost all refer to Wesley’s sermons, and what really stands out as one of the pieces in that chapter is the way in which the transformation of the Holy Spirit has a part to play in this gospel message.
When you speak about the gospel, it’s not just something that belongs to the past. It’s not just forgiveness. It includes this radical element of transformation to it, that God is changing who we are, and that’s happening through the Spirit. Wesley’s view shares a lot with the Reformation obviously, but it’s this element of the Spirit that de Silva brings out from Wesley’s tradition that I think really adds something of value. It’s there in Calvin as well, for those that know him, but Wesley is just beautiful with it. I think that matters that the gospel doesn’t just forgive us. It forms us into people that look like and act like Christ.
David Capes
It changes us, doesn’t it. Now, what about Julie Ma? Julie is a new scholar to me. She’s been a missionary for a long time. She has an interesting life story.
Jason Maston
Julie was brought in because of her missionary context, she is able to give a person of a Pentecostal background who’s done mission work and sees how the presentation of the gospel plays out in lives that on the ground. In a sense, her view is similar to a Reformation view. It reads in a lot of places, similar to what Horton and even De Silva does at points.
What she does, though, is contextualizes it in the lives of the disadvantaged, of people that are suffering from AIDS and in are extreme poverty and brings out the way in which the gospel speaks to those contexts. Particularly a gospel of forgiveness and of hope that transforms people’s lives in this context. It is interesting to think about. How does our gospel message impact a person on the ground, and as we started the conversation, hers is a great example of that. What it looks like to minister to people in dire situations. How the gospel can bring hope to them.
David Capes
What about Shively Smith?
Jason Maston
Yes. Shively is at Boston University. I know her work from 1 Peter. She’s got this great book on the diaspora context of 1 Peter and she presents the liberation view for us. Again, there’s overlap here with McKnight and Ma’s account of things.
David Capes
Which I think you would expect, because they’re all talking about the gospel. There’s going to be overlap, but the mountain peaks might be a little different.
Jason Maston
That’s right. In her case, it’s the liberating aspect that the gospel brings. The gospel moves people out of oppression and into states of wholeness and completeness. It’s the entire human condition that’s addressed, not just sin or death.
David Capes
Or souls.
Jason Maston
Yes, it’s the very social structures of the world around us that she wants to emphasize, that the message truly transforms. It’s this holistic understanding of things.
David Capes
It sounds to me that your experience of this has been such that each one of these has something to commend it.
Jason Maston
I think that is the case. I like the Reformation. I gravitate that way. As a deeply introspective person, I’m very aware of my own sins and my failures, and immensely grateful for this good news that brings me deliverance from these things. But as I read these essays, I was overwhelmed by the sense in which the gospel truly changes everything about the world. It is a gospel that addresses us individually, and I’m worried at times that that some of the contemporary views forget that.
Because if it only changes individuals, that misses it. Christ came to change the entire world, and that’s part of what he’s doing here. And I think that’s what we see in the New Testament Gospels. When he shows up and he announces the kingdom’s coming, and then he goes and he heals individuals right there in their midst, the kingdom is present as these lives are transformed. Demons are driven out. And I think there’s a beauty in seeing things little bit as above the end.
David Capes
Well, this is a very new book. It’s just been out about two months now. It’s entitled Five Views on the Gospel. The editors are Michael Bird, who’s been with us before on The Stone Chapel Podcast, and Jason Maston, who now is with us here. It’s a great book. I would commend it. It’s beautifully written. And as you said, there are parts of it that are I find stirring and moving. I commend you all for bringing it to light. One last thing. What do you want to see this book do? Is it going to solve all the debates on the internet?
Jason Maston
No, that may not be possible!
David Capes
Until the kingdom comes in completion.
Jason Maston
That’s right. What I hope for this is that it reduces a little bit of the angst people have. The back-and-forth shots that are taken by people of other views. That people will see that others do care about one another in this. And that we’re really trying to make the best sense of the Bible that God’s given us. Maybe what we need to do is just hear a little bit more what the other person says, and be willing to at least understand their position and see where they’re coming from with it.
That may be asking too much from it, in that sense. But the other part is that I hope some lay people will read this and come to love the gospel more. Whichever view they end up picking, they’ll have a better sense of what the gospel is. They’ll understand God better for it. We end the book by saying, if at the end of the day, all this does is make us think about the Triune God more, that’s a win for all of us.
David Capes
It does. Dr. Jason Maston, thank you for being with us today on “The Stone Chapel Podcast.”
Jason Maston
I’m delighted to have been here. Thanks for having me.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
