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You can find previous episodes of “The Stone Chapel Podcast” at Lanier Theological Library.
“The Stone Chapel Podcast” is part of the ChurchLeaders Podcast Network.
This episode has been edited for clarity and space.
Nathan Hatch
I’m Nathan Hatch, and I’m President Emeritus of Wake Forest University, where I served 16 years as president.
David Capes
Dr. Nathan Hatch, Nathan, welcome to “The Stone Chapel Podcast.”
Nathan Hatch
Thank you, David. It’s great to be with you.
David Capes
Well, you’ve seen the Stone Chapel, so that’s the inspiration behind this. It’s solid as a rock, and we want these conversations to be solid as a rock too. We’re going to be talking in a few minutes about your book, “The Gift of Transformative Leaders.” It’s published in the Cambridge Elements Series on leadership. We’ll say more about that later. But for those who don’t know who you are, who is Nathan Hatch?
Nathan Hatch
I’m a historian. I’ve studied early American history and American religious history, and I’ve spent my life at two institutions. I went to teach history at the University of Notre Dame, teaching early American history, and I did that for about a decade. Then I started getting involved in administration, and I ended up being the provost there for nine years. After that I was asked to come to Wake Forest, where I was president for sixteen years and now, I’m retired.
David Capes
You were at two powerhouse schools, great schools, and not just powerhouse in football or athletics, but powerhouses in academics as well. That’s exciting.
Nathan Hatch
I’ve been very blessed. Both places are really centered in values and formative education, that is educating the whole person. It’s been a great privilege.
David Capes
Notre Dame has been working in educating the whole person for a long time, from what I can tell. I’ve never been on the inside, just observing from the outside. And having read your book, it’s happening under your leadership at Wake Forest too. In addition to some of the people that you brought along to help you in this process, this understanding of educating the whole person. You don’t just say, let’s help you get a job, But let’s make you into a complete person, a citizen, a person who is well integrated inside and out.
You’ve written this book entitled, “The Gift of Transformative Leaders,” and it’s an interesting book. In the very first part of the book, you lay out the foundation for what transformative leaders are and how they fit within the institution. And then you give different examples of people that you have worked with over the years in your task at Notre Dame and Wake Forest University, and how they contributed and what you learned from them. I thought that was fascinating, because not only are these people transformative leaders, but they are also, it seems to me, also transforming you along the way. They’re shaping you.
Nathan Hatch
Well, if you hire great people, it does shape you. I tell the story of when I had a really strong cabinet with many of these people. I remember facing our weekly cabinet meeting with a bit of fear and trembling, because I had to work hard. These were really talented people. You had to keep up. Ryan as dean of our business school, Steve had been CEO of PepsiCo and had been national chairman of the Salvation Army. He was a tremendous person of faith, and a leader of the very first rank. Working with people like that, I think, made me a stronger leader. It made me focus on how I could help empower these people.
David Capes
Let’s start by laying out your thesis for this book. What’s the big idea of the book?
Nathan Hatch
I call it the gift of transformative leaders, rather than leadership, because I think leaders come in so many different forms. I don’t think there’s a cookie cutter model. But I do think leaders are people who have a particular kind of vision. That is, they’re not content with the way things are. They have a vision. They have a way of executing. They’re not just talking about it. They’re actually putting it in place. My experience is great leaders build teams. I think team work is an accelerator of getting things done. And in the end, I think leaders have character.
And I think if there’s one thing that distinguishes a leader, is that they’re trusted. There are leaders who lead by power and force and fear. I think that can work for a while. You want a
transformative leader that leaves an organization much better than when they found it. Not just a short-term something, but long-term organizational health. To do that I think you have to be trusted, and that means you have to learn to delegate. You have to learn how to have other talented people in your organization and allow them to flourish. I guess there’s another thesis here, and that the best organization is not just one leader at the top. It’s a culture that encourages people to be leaders and allows them to do so.
David Capes
There was one thing that stuck with me first. Some of the leadership studies that I’ve read and looked at, say let’s get the right person at the very top, and then he/she can take all these ragamuffins and get them into shape. But in fact, your thesis is the CEO is a talented leader. And then they begin putting on their team, talented people as well. In fact, the team may be more talented than the CEO, in some cases.
Nathan Hatch
And in the university, I think that’s necessary. Sociologists say a university is the most complicated organism in our society. You have everything from various kinds of academics, you have investments, you have student affairs, you have athletics. There’s all sorts of things happening. There’s not one person, and particularly an academic like myself, who can know all that needs to be known. The key is, in some ways, be willing to hire people better than yourself and then try to mold them into a team.
David Capes
I think that scares off some people.
Nathan Hatch
It does!
David Capes
In other words, I don’t want anybody here who’s any better than me. I want to be the smartest person in the room, all the time.
Nathan Hatch
You know, somehow along the way, I came to the opposite conclusion. I knew my vulnerabilities, and so I said, I better have good people surrounding me, and that is just the way I worked. And so, I put huge investment and energy into searching for personnel.
