James McGrath
I think that’s right. And I think that I avoided the term forerunner, partly because it’s what everybody thinks of concerning John. But also because of the possible ways that we might think of John and his talk about one who is to come after him. Forerunner might be true, but it’s not the whole picture. Whether it’s John styling himself as Elijah, and so Elisha comes along after him. Maybe that’s one of the ideas when thinking about one who is to come will be stronger, Elisha really enacts this regime change and does things that Elijah didn’t do. He gets the prophets up and running.
Whether we think about, the idea that we know from the Dead Sea Scrolls, that John perhaps thought of himself as a quasi-priestly Messiah. Or the one who came after would be the Davidic royal Messiah was another possibility. I found that in the end, John, in our sources, doesn’t use that term, either for himself or for the one coming after. So I couldn’t pin it down precisely, but it seems as though between what John says and what Jesus says about John, that he’s the opening act. And then once you get to Jesus, you can ignore him. We’re already doing that. They didn’t want to encourage that any further.
David Capes
Yes, there’s that line in John chapter 3, where John says He must increase and I must decrease. It’s as if I’ve been in the spotlight. Now it’s got to be Jesus. And that seems to be the New Testament, or the Christian perspective, doesn’t it?
James McGrath
Yes, absolutely. One of the things that tells us for the Christian perspective is John doesn’t need to decrease. There’s no way that anybody is greater than Jesus. But in actual fact, the perception, the impact, the sense we get from the book of Acts is the baptism of John was known in places before baptism in the name of Jesus is. In fact, the only way that Jesus could be greater is if John decreases, and having John express that himself, I think, is saying John is the one who was in the limelight. John was the one that was seen to be more famous in his time, and now is the time to shift things and to put your attention somewhere else.
David Capes
Well, he was certainly taken seriously by the governing authorities, wasn’t he? He gets the attention. He’s not just some oddball living on the street that does weird and strange things according to the social convention of the time. John is a formidable figure against the powers that be at that time. And of course, Jesus succumbs to the powers that be. Jesus himself is crucified by those political powers. There ends up being in the Christian story, a greater victory yet at hand, but still just on a sheer political plain, John had some gravity.
James McGrath
Yes, absolutely. And it’s interesting that Herod Antipas, starts seeing Jesus on his radar. And he’s thinking oh, John is back!
David Capes
That’s a nightmare he didn’t want to relive. Well, it’s a fascinating book, and I’m really grateful that you’ve written it and that you’ve given us an opportunity to talk a little bit about it. It’s called Christmaker: The Life of John the Baptist. Did anything surprise you? As I start writing a book, I always have a sense of where it’s going, and then usually somewhere in there, I find things I didn’t know were there. Or I realize, this is new. Did anything surprise you as you worked on this?
James McGrath
Oh yes. And you know, certainly as part of the broader picture, there are lots of specific things that I could point to. I think certainly one of them that clicked for me was that John was the son of a priest. As far as we know, he doesn’t go into his father’s line of work. Of course, priests did not always serve in the temple. The fact that it wasn’t mentioned wouldn’t tell us anything, but he seems to actually be doing something that’s potentially opposed to what his father is doing. He’s saying, purchase an animal go to my dad and get a sacrifice, or come meet me at the river!
And I realized that John potentially is a bit of a rebel, but not the rebel whose father is a fundamentalist and the son grows his hair out and starts a heavy metal band. This somebody who is doing something profoundly religious and yet potentially in tension with, or at least an alternative to what his father’s doing. And I thought wow, there’s got to be a really interesting family backstory to that.
David Capes
Yes, I wonder what family dinners were like!
James McGrath
Then realizing that actually paying attention to some of the details, there might actually be some evidence that provides clues to what led John along that unconventional path. That potentially rebellious path, and you don’t necessarily need to go into detail about it, but there were times when I thought, If only we could figure this out. It would enrich our portrait of John.
And I found that by actually digging into the sources, sometimes, not always, but sometimes there was more there to be found. It just took making John the focus, allowing it to be the center of attention for a little while. You know, even if that was against his intention. And yet, I think that ultimately there’s more that we can say about John than we have based on our sources. And I think that when we do that, if our interest ultimately is in Jesus, that our portrait of Jesus is enriched by paying attention to John before we rush on.
David Capes
I like that. I like the way you said early in the book, if we don’t pay attention to John, we’re going to easily end up misunderstanding Jesus. And I think that’s exactly right. Dr, James McGrath, author of the book Christmaker: A Life of John the Baptist. It’s published by Eerdmans. Congratulations on the book, and James, we’ll look forward to having you back.
James McGrath
Thank you so much. It’s been great talking to you.
A Nugget of Wisdom from James McGrath
Oftentimes, our institutions of higher education are deeply partisan and are splintered along ideological and religious lines, and we often hold very tightly to our views and our beliefs. And I’m so glad that in the process of studying, I realized that somebody who’s challenging my beliefs, my viewpoints, isn’t necessarily attacking me as a person.
In fact, challenging me could potentially be and, if I approach it right, will be something that’s helpful to me. Either by thinking about the question, why do I believe what I believe? Why don’t I accept what this person says. My own views will be strengthened and enriched, or I might actually change my mind about something that I’m wrong about. Because, like all human beings, I’ve been wrong before. Realizing that we can actually engage with others, including those who disagree with us, in a way that’s enriching, rewarding, and positive is probably the most important lesson I learned as a student. And I’ve tried to make part of how I approach being a scholar as well.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
