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You can find previous episodes of “The Stone Chapel Podcast” at Lanier Theological Library.
“The Stone Chapel Podcast” is part of the ChurchLeaders Podcast Network.
This transcript has been edited for clarity and space.
David Wilhite
Hello. My name is David Wilhite, and I teach historical theology, and I focus on early Christianity at Truett Theological Seminary of Baylor University.
Adam Winn
Adam Winn. I am the S. Lewis and Anne W. Armstrong Professor at Samford University, but also the Department Chair of the Biblical and Religious Studies department. And I also teach New Testament courses.
David Capes
David Wilhite, Adam Wynn, welcome to our podcast, The Stone Chapel Podcast. Thanks for being with us.
Adam Winn
Thanks for having us.
David Wilhite
Thanks. Very delighted to be here.
David Capes
We’re going to be talking about your book here in just a minute. But there are people listening to this podcast, who don’t know David, or don’t know much about him. Or Adam Winn. Let’s let people get to know you both. David, for those who don’t know you, who are you.
David Wilhite
I’m a husband. I’m a father of two, boy and a girl. Well, man and a woman because they are both in college now. I teach at Baylor University, at the seminary there. I’m originally from Georgia. All my extended family is in Alabama. I lived in Alabama six years, and went to school, ultimately in Scotland at the University of St Andrews. Then I landed here in Texas and have been here for almost 18 years. And I try to stay busy with work and family, and when I’m not doing that stuff, I love anything involving the outdoors.
David Capes
That’s cool. What part of Georgia are you from, because I’m from the Atlanta area.
David Wilhite
Oh, yeah? Well, I’m from Columbus, Georgia, right along the Alabama border.
David Capes
All right, good. I love Georgia. I love the people. I love the sweet tea that you get there. Adam, how about you, for those who don’t know, Adam Winn, who is he?
Adam Winn
I also am a husband and a father, a father of only one, about to be a college student. I am about to send my daughter off to college. And I have lived all over the place. I’m originally from the Pacific Northwest. I grew up in Portland, Oregon. I taught at Azusa Pacific University. I spent many years at the University of Mary Hardin Baylor. I am in Birmingham, Alabama, where I am, for the first time, serving as a department chair. And love being at Samford. It’s a wonderful school. I’ve written a lot on the gospel of Mark, done a lot on the New Testament’s engagement with the Roman imperial world. More recently, I’ve done a lot of work on early Christology and Jewish monotheism.
David Capes
Ah, fascinating. I’m deeply interested in those kinds of questions as well, and I think our audience is too. You guys together have written a book called, “Israel’s Lord: Yahweh as ‘Two Powers’ in Second Temple Literature,” published by Fortress Press. How did you team up to do this particular book?
David Wilhite
Adam and I have been friends for a long time now. So, he is the New Testament expert, and I am the guy who deals with after the New Testament. And for years I was goading Adam and trying to convince him of this idea that when the earliest Christians talked about Jesus as Lord, they really meant Jesus is like the Lord, but LORD you read about in the Old Testament. Yahweh. Finally, after years, I brought Adam around and convinced him. That’s my one triumph here. Now the problem, you have to admit, is what I was trying to say was a very blunt and unsophisticated argument. And so, after about four to five years or more of talking about this, he came around.
Adam Winn
It was a very long conversation!
David Wilhite
I don’t know who thought of it first, but we realized, we actually have something here. We’ve refined this argument, and we’ve got something to contribute. We said, let’s do a book.
David Capes
Adam, you want to add to that?
Adam Winn
Yeah, David Wilhite is very persuasive, and did finally bent me around to this view. And I think it’s right but how would it actually work? And then to begin to think about second temple Judaism, and start to explore that. I think that’s where things really begin to get fruitful for us.
David Capes
You both have been collaborating on this for quite a while now. This book that we’re talking about Israel’s Lord, is part one. How does it work with other things that you’re planning right now?
David Wilhite
I should say this is the question that started us; what happened when early Christians looked to their Old Testament, at what are called the theophanies, the appearances of God. Unanimously, the early Christians after the New Testament period are looking at those appearances of God as always being God the Son, not God the Father, the way most of us modern Christians think. So, when God walks in the garden with Adam and Eve, that’s God the Son. When God appears on Mount Sinai to Moses in the burning bush, that’s God the Son. Etcetera, etcetera.
So our question was, where did this come from? What we wanted to do is back this up and say, yes, this is found not in all, but in many of our New Testament texts. They’re assuming the same thing. We needed to lay the groundwork for that, and that became a huge project. And Adam actually was the one who was able to orchestrate us getting a three book contract with Fortress Academic. The first one is where we do most of the background to the New Testament, to set up our bigger project. But there will be two more books that come after this.
David Capes
What is the timeline?
Adam Winn
We wish we had a timeline. The publisher thinks that we do, but I don’t know. Summer 2026 is when we’re hoping to have the manuscript of the next book.
David Wilhite
Yeah, not this year, but the next year.
David Capes
Let’s start diving in. In the title, you talk about Yahweh as two powers. That language is familiar to me because I read Alan Segal’s book many, many years ago. That was my first introduction to that language. Adam, what do you mean by two powers? Yahweh as two powers.
