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This transcript has been edited for clarity and space.
John Peckham
Hello. My name is John Peckham, and I’m Research Professor of Theology and Christian Philosophy at Andrews University in Berrien Springs, Michigan.
David Capes
Dr John Peckham, John, good to see you again. Welcome back to The Stone Chapel Podcast.
John Peckham
Great to see you. Thank you for having me again.
David Capes
Okay. You’re getting ready for the fall semester like a lot of faculty members are. It comes quickly. You were on with us before to talk about your book, The Theodicy of Love, which was a great podcast. We’re going to put it in our show notes, and people will have an opportunity to go back and listen to that and learn more about you.
But today we’re going to be talking about your book. It’s a new book called Why We Pray: Understanding Prayer in the Context of Cosmic Conflict. It’s a great book. I’ve endorsed it. Michael Lloyd endorsed it. And I love about what Michael said. I’m just going to read it here.
It’s not every book of serious theology that leaves one eager to pray, but this one does. Not by admonition, but by fundamentally shifting our view of God and how He is at work in the world.
I think that’s terrific!
John Peckham
It was very, very kind words from him.
David Capes
Let’s start off by connecting some dots. Your title is Why We Pray: Understanding Prayer in the Context of Cosmic Conflict. We often think of prayers as I’m talking to God. God’s talking to me. Let’s introduce the notion that is throughout your book about cosmic conflict. Help us connect those two dots.
John Peckham
I bring the idea of cosmic conflict in because I’m trying to answer a couple of questions that are closely related. How could prayer make a difference in the first place, particularly petitionary prayer. Of course, there was many other aspects of prayer, but this book is focused primarily on questions about petitioner prayer. How could prayer make any difference or influence divine action when God already knows what’s best. He already wants what’s best. He’s all powerful. How could prayer make any difference at all?
And then, in parallel to that, or the other side of the coin, if you will, is what about prayers that seem to go unanswered. These are questions that a lot of people struggle with, that cause a lot of cognitive dissonance in people’s minds. And there’s been a lot of good theological discussion over the years about prayer, and a lot of potential answers or avenues to address these questions. But I believe that the cosmic conflict provides a broad framework, or at least helping to address these kinds of questions. When I speak of cosmic conflict, I have in mind the idea that there is a rebellion of celestial creatures against God’s kingdom. The kingdom of darkness that Paul and others talk about, the principalities and powers that are opposing God and God’s kingdom of unselfish love. Of course, this conflict cannot be one of sheer power. That would be impossible.
David Capes
He’s not omnipotent.
John Peckham
Right. The enemy, the devil is not omnipotent. The devil is a creature. The devil is not eternal. When we talk about cosmic conflict, we need to distinguish it from things like cosmic dualism, or really any kind of dualism. This is not a war between equal powers, not even close. And so many people ask, how could there be a conflict in the first place? And this is only possible if this is a conflict not of sheer power, but a conflict of another kind.
And I believe, and I make a case in other work like The Theodicy of Love, that this is a conflict over character. Conflict that is sparked primarily by the devil’s allegations against God’s goodness, against God’s love, against God’s government. And you cannot answer conflict questions of one’s character. Allegations against your character by power or by force, those can only be met by demonstration. And so scripture paints the picture of this cosmic conflict all the way throughout the temptations of Christ. In fact, you can’t read more than a few pages, if even that, in the Gospel of Matthew without running into this theme of cosmic conflict. So. it’s not just a peripheral idea. It’s central to the Gospel story, and it’s actually central to Jesus’ own teachings about prayer. I try to bring that framework in, to try to see what we can understand about how prayer, particularly petitionary prayer, could make sense in this broader context where God himself is embroiled in a conflict.
David Capes
Let me just quote a rabbi friend of mine who says this about prayer. Prayer does not change God. Prayer changes us.
Which is it? Does prayer change us or does prayer change God? From your point of view.
John Peckham
I would answer yes to both those questions. I would say, first of all, prayer does and should change us. There are many benefits of prayer. Sometimes spoken of in terms of therapeutic benefits, bringing us in relationship to God. Maybe making us more attuned to God’s will, and hopefully, especially when it comes to petitioner prayer. If we’re praying to God to do something, we ought to be reminded that we should be doing what we can do within our sphere of influence. If we’re saying, oh Lord, help my neighbor, but it’s within my power to help them, we should actively be the hands and feet of God. So, prayer does change us, and should change us. Not only draw us closer to God, but it should also awaken us and open our eyes to what’s around us. To hopefully see the world as much as possible through God’s eyes and act accordingly.
But I think prayer also affects God, and here I would say there’s a yes and a no. If we say by this, it changes God’s desire to be good towards us or to be benevolent, that’s false. It doesn’t do that. God is already omni-benevolent. He already wants what’s best for everyone. It’s not as if we pray in order to convince God to be good or loving toward us. It’s not as if we pray to give God new information. It’s not as if our prayer can somehow make God more powerful, but I do believe that prayer can make a difference when it comes to divine action. We might make a distinction between changing God’s action and who God is, right? God is unchangeable. His essential nature is unchangeable. But we could say, yes, at least, I believe the Bible teaches consistently that prayer actually makes a difference to God and can actually influence divine action. And we see this in Jesus’ instructions about prayer and the Lord’s Prayer, when he teaches the disciples to pray. There’s seven petitions there.
David Capes
Ask. Keep asking, right?
John Peckham
Yeah, ask, seek. And this idea of petitionary prayer that actually makes a difference is pervasive throughout scripture, and so I do believe it affects God. It makes a difference. So, I would say both, and it’s not merely for us. It’s also a way of partnering with God in what he wants to do in this world.
David Capes
It joins us as participants in that particular remedy, or whatever needs to happen for that particular person. Now I’m going to go to the other side, to my Catholic priest friend. These are two guys that I have a lot to do with. He says:
When we ask God for something, there’s one of three answers, there’s yes, there’s no, and the third is, I have a better idea.
Have you ever heard that before? I had never heard that before, except from him.
John Peckham
I haven’t heard it put that way before. I actually use something close to that. In the book I mentioned three answers, yes, no and not yet. And the idea that, I have a better idea, I would think of in the category of no or maybe even not yet. Because both of those are some kinds of negative answers. Sometimes, I think there’s a lot of wisdom in what your friend stated because the way the book of Romans puts it, Paul puts it is, we don’t know how to pray as we ought. But the good news is that God knows, the Holy Spirit intercedes for us. And so, when we’re praying, even petitioner prayer, even when we’re praying for things that seem obviously good to us, there are many other factors and a much broader picture of which we are not aware. So, what seems obviously good to us might not actually be good, or it might be good in and of itself, but it might have other ramifications that we can’t see.
And this is one of the reasons God might say no, or he might say the timing is not right. If God was to answer our prayers the way we think you should all the time, that the results would be worse than we think. There would be other results that we cannot fathom and we cannot recognize. I think it’s true, we should always keep that in mind that God has a better idea. And I think this is why the New Testament so consistently upholds that it’s prayers according to God’s will that are consistently answered according to God’s will. And that will includes a lot of factors that we cannot fathom.
