David Capes
Is this leadership for a business? Is it for a parachurch organization? Is it for the church? Will it work in every situation?
Nicole Martin
I wrestled with that. I remembered when I first started writing, the core question is, who are you writing to. I think this is leadership for anyone who is weary of old ways of leading, who wants to see new results in leadership, and for those who are trying to adapt to new leadership styles. Either because they’re just getting started, or they’ve been at it for a while. And for me, I intentionally do not define the context of leadership, because I don’t think Jesus does that.
Jesus speaks to the disciples as leaders, and they were fishermen. Some might say in that context, a fisherman is not a leader. Fisherman only works with fish, but he speaks to them as leaders. He speaks to the woman at the well, and people would say she’s not a leader, but then she goes and tells the whole town about a man who told her everything that she had ever done. I don’t want to discount those whom God would call to influence the lives of others, and that’s why I think leadership is what we make it and what we decide.
David Capes
It sounds like almost anybody can become a leader. You can talk about fishermen, and the woman at the well. You’re not talking about people who are already leaders at some level. These are people who are everyday people. As the leader of Christianity Today, have you had a chance to try out some of this already?
Nicole Martin
Yes, and I think most people who have ever written something would say, there it’s a different reality to conceptualize something in words and then to try it out with your actions. But by the grace of God, we are living in a time that requires a different way of showing up. Not showing up with prowess and elitism and an assumption of knowing all of the details but showing up with humility. Showing up with a desire to know and to learn.
Leading CT has been a privilege, even for the few weeks that I’ve been in this role, not just because of the organization itself, but because of the people. We have some of the most thoughtful, prolific writers that I can think of on our team. We have organizational leaders in our operations that are faithful to God. So it’s been an honor for me to come alongside and not say, here’s where we’re going, but to ask, what do you need. How can I serve you? How can I show up best?
And that does require a dying. It requires a dying to my own sense of how things need to be, and it requires a desire to say, God, what do you want this to be? I described to someone recently when they asked, how’s it going? I said, this is one of the greatest faith walks I have ever taken in my life. But what an opportunity for a leader in a position of influence to surrender it before Jesus and say, God, not my organization, but yours. Not my will asserted on these people, but your will for your people. And that’s what I get to do every day. I get to say, in the words of Henry Blackaby, God show us where you’re working and help us to join you there. And that’s truly a privilege.
David Capes
I love the way you said that in resurrection, there is a cost. I’ve never thought about that before, but I think you’re exactly right. Would you parse that out a little bit for us? What does that mean? Because we think of resurrection as the reward. Resurrection is life, and now all the good stuff comes. But in fact, as you said, in leadership and maybe in other parts of life, resurrection does come at a cost.
Nicole Martin
Yes, yes, it does in simple ways. It shows up in our vision. We step into positional leadership, leading an organization or an elder board or a small group, and you have this vision. We are going to be a people who have this type of culture and achieve these goals. Well, if we were to assume that we could just reach those goals without any hardship, conflict or trials, then we would be deceived, and we would be ready to forsake those things when the troubles come.
Resurrection comes with a cost, and what I mean is we get to those goals through sacrifice. We achieve those milestones, and we create that structure and that culture by giving up some things along the way. And we’ve got to be intentional and have our eyes wide open on what that takes. But I also think the joy comes once you recognize the cost of resurrection, then you really celebrate it.
It reminds me of the story of Jesus healing the woman of many demons, and he says in my
paraphrase, that she will rejoice. She knows the cost of her deliverance. And I know I’m butchering the story, but Jesus is recognizing, acknowledging the fact that those who have been delivered from much will also own and recognize their deliverance in a different way. It’s the widow who gives of her little, and Jesus recognizes her. The cost of what she has given up results in great reward. And when we think back on our own lives, we would have to admit the times when we had to work hard to get something are the times when we appreciate it the most.
And God forbid the day that we assume our resurrection victory is free. God forbid the day that we assume our salvation is free. No, our salvation came with the cross, and that was a cost. Our resurrection victory comes with the cost of the cross, and as long as I can keep that in mind, I’ll never take it for granted.
David Capes
So how has your book done out in the market? Nailing it: Why Successful Leadership Demands Suffering and Surrender.
Nicole Martin
That’s a hard question, because, you know, according to the standards of the world, I did get my one little screenshot a week after it released that said, “top new release”. It was only for just a few minutes. I got a screenshot before it went away. Is that something to celebrate? Sure!
I think we’re still tracking to see. Books are interesting seeds to plant in the soil of the kingdom. Sometimes you see the fruit right away and you recognize, oh my goodness, people are buying this. What a wonderful thing. But sometimes the seed takes a while to germinate. I am grateful for those who have purchased it. I am grateful for opportunities like these when I get to talk about it, but I’m still trusting that God will use this book to produce harvest in people’s lives that maybe I can’t see or calculate right now.
David Capes
Well, the success will come along with your continued persistence in describing this to people on podcasts and speaking opportunities about the nature of leadership. What it really looks like, what it really costs, and those kinds of things. Rather than thinking now I’m on top of the world because I’m CEO, and my brain must be somehow anointed. That everything I think is going to be a good idea. Usually, we have one very good idea among about 5,000 that are not so good. Just figuring that out, and as you said, surrendering that, and really, truly listening to the people that you’re working with. Who are, in your case, brilliant writers, brilliant people, in terms of looking at culture and what’s happening.
I’m just so excited that you’re going to be here and you’re going to be speaking to us, and we’re going to be blessed and encouraged and instructed and corrected as needed by you in this particular time. Dr. Nicole Martin, thanks for being with us today on “The Stone Chapel Podcast.”
Nicole Martin
Thank you so much, David.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
