Rich Villodas on The Stetzer ChurchLeaders Podcast.mp3: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.
Voice Over:
Welcome to the Stetzer Church Leaders Podcast, conversations with today’s top ministry leaders to help you lead better every day. And now, here are your hosts, Ed Stetzer and Daniel Yang.
Daniel Yang:
Welcome to the Stetzer Church Leaders Podcast, where we’re helping Christian leaders navigate and lead through the cultural issues of our day. My name is Daniel Yang, national director of Churches of Welcome at World Relief. And today we’re talking to Rich Velotus. Rich was born in Brooklyn and is the lead pastor of New Life Fellowship, a multiracial church in Queens. He enjoys reading widely, preaching and writing on contemplative spirituality, justice related matters, and the art of preaching. Rich is the author of several books, including his latest, The Narrow Path How the Subversive Way of Jesus Satisfies Our Soul. Now let’s go to Ed Stetzer, editor in chief of Outreach Magazine and the dean of the Talbot School of Theology.
Ed Stetzer:
Well, super excited to have this conversation because you may have noticed the world is on fire. And it seems that I mean we need this kind of conversation. I want to lean in with Rich and with our listeners. I know our, of course, audiences, pastors and church leaders. In some ways, we’re maybe better prepared. I think I think 2024 is going to be in the next few months, more difficult and divided than even the prior election cycles, because you’re not all Americans are listening, though I do think pastors and church leaders are a little better prepared. They maybe got caught not ready flat footed in 2016 2020. A little better prepared. But I love the book that that you have published. And I’m a little biased because I wrote a book called The Subversive Kingdom, which deals a lot with the sermon on the Mount. But the book is the narrow path how the subversive way of Jesus satisfies our souls. I should just also let everybody know that we’re actually doing a I’m working with Rich because we’re doing I’m the general editor of a series called Pastors Plus that we’re launching with right now media. And Rich is talking about rhythms in that. So I think these conversations are going to that’ll be out in November at the right now conference. But the, the I think rhythms are going to become a key part of that because in the midst of a very tumultuous and turbulent world, looking to the way and teaching of Jesus and living out the rhythms of life makes such a difference. So tell me first. I mean, this is a little biographical. Before we get to the book again, the book is Narrow Path, but how did you where and how were you drawn to this idea of being sort of a spiritual formation oriented way of Jesus contemplative kind of way? I mean, that’s that’s that’s not what I think of when I think of Queens. So let’s talk about that.
Rich Villodas:
Well, Ed, first of all, I love just getting time with you. So thank you for the kind invitation. Uh, you know, I became a follower of Jesus at the age of 19, and me and family, 15 family members, came to Christ on one night in a small church, uh, in Brooklyn, New York. My parents, my siblings, cousins, uncles, aunts, 15 of us came to faith in Jesus. And, uh, after that remarkable, uh, moment on a Sunday evening in a small church, I went down the block to ask my grandfather a set of questions. Really a holy and humble man of God who is a student of the scriptures and my grandfather’s bedroom. He was very ill at the time, and for eight months after coming to Christ, I would spend about 4 to 5 days a week with him, 2 to 3 hours each time, and he would disciple me in the scriptures. Wow. Uh, his bedroom became my first monastery. Uh, and he would teach me about prayer and solitude and silence and the scriptures. And so from that point on, even though it was a Pentecostal tradition where I became a Christian in, I was also seeing contemplation and reflection and meditation. And so it started with my grandfather, Marcus, for the first eight months after becoming a Christ follower. And then from there, I thankfully, I went to a college where I was being exposed to a wide array of traditions. Uh, I got introduced to, uh, the works of Henri Nouwen, The Return of the Prodigal Son and that led me to reading The Desert Fathers and Mothers and, uh, and so even though I’m from Brooklyn and pastor a church in Queens and live in the city that never sleeps, uh, the first few years of my spiritual journey set me on a particular trajectory to hold together contemplation, as well as charismatic and Pentecostal expressions of faith. But, uh, that’s how I got started. Yeah, you’re.
Ed Stetzer:
Kind of a walking ecumenical movement on some.
Ed Stetzer:
Of those things.
Ed Stetzer:
Um, okay, so so I want to talk some about, uh, the teachings of Jesus, of course, in the sermon on the Mount that the book, just so everyone’s aware, is based on the sermon on the Mount in the subtitle The Narrow Path How the Subversive Way of Jesus Satisfies Our Souls, is going to talk some about that. But here’s what I was preaching through the book of Matthew at Moody Church. I was the interim pastor of Moody Church for about four years, downtown Chicago ish church. And there’s a whole stream of theology that has actually come to the conclusion that the sermon on the Mount is so radical. It’s not for our day, it’s for the kingdom of God. And that stream is sort of declined. There’s a new book out called The Rise and Fall of Dispensationalism that sort of describes that. And of course, D.L. Moody didn’t think that. And so I you know, I explained and I just taught from the sermon on the Mount, but I think that one of the reasons that the theological tradition of dispensationalism in its in its original form, progressive dispensationalism wouldn’t hold that. But in its original form, one of the reasons is the sermon was just so shocking. How could it be for today? I mean, Rich, have you seen the news? We gotta fight, we gotta deal. We gotta take on the enemy. We gotta all that Jesus turning the other cheek stuff. You are the right in the wrong book for the wrong time, bro. So tell me. Tell me about this book. Why this was on your heart and your burden.
Rich Villodas:
Well, a couple of reasons. One, um, well, let me just address that. I, I do believe that lots of people would think today that the sermon on the Mount was given to demonstrate our inability to live it out and to trust God. And I think Jesus flips that, actually. And the accent is not simply on the trusting in God, but actually in the trusting in God to live it out. And so, Jesus, we can only do it through the power of Jesus and the power of the spirit. But the emphasis, the accent is on us actually living it out, bearing witness to this subversive kingdom of God. But for me, it started with back to my grandfather. My grandfather gave me two assignments over those eight months, so it sent me on a particular trajectory since I was 19. The first assignment was to memorize entire Psalms. And so he would say, you know, meditate on Psalm 27 for the next 27, uh, next two weeks, and we’ll and I want you to recite it to me, uh, over the next month or so, but not only living in the Psalms, he wanted me to live in the words of Jesus.
Rich Villodas:
And so he would give me the sermon on the Mount to read every week. And so it started kind of autobiographically through my grandfather’s mentorship. But as I’ve gone on and pastored and been a follower of Jesus, I really believe that the sermon on the Mount is the most important set of teachings as it relates to faithfulness to Jesus. Uh, at the same time, it’s so comprehensive, addressing so many different facets. And I there was a pastoral urgency in that if it is the most important set of teachings as it relates to faithfulness to Jesus, um, it might be the most underrated and under practiced, uh, set of teachings. And so that disconnect there for me, I think is really significant and why I decided to spend time wrestling with this, even though it doesn’t seem like a practical book that’s going to lead to efficiency and, uh, power in the ways that the world really is hungering after it, especially in this particular moment that we’re in.
Daniel Yang:
Rich, talk to us about the the idea of the narrow path. Um, you know, what’s the paradox about the narrow path and why do you think we avoid it?
Rich Villodas:
Yeah. You know, I go towards the end of the sermon on the Mount, Matthew seven, where Jesus starts talking about the narrow path and the broad path leading to destruction and the narrow path leading to life. And again, I think the accent of what Jesus is getting at is really important, first of all, because lots of folks would just interpret that as, oh, this is just about eternal destination, heaven and hell. And of course, the sermon on the Mount faith today has eternal implications. But I think what Jesus was getting at specifically was not, okay, what’s your eternal destination? But the narrow path is truly following the ways of Jesus right here, right now, the ultimately redemptive way of Jesus. Which is a shocking thing to say, because to say that is to say. And I think Jesus gets at this as well when he says, many have prophesied in my name and done wonders in my name. And and Jesus would say, I don’t know you. How is it possible that those could be Christians but not be on a narrow path? And I think that’s wholly possible and very sobering and shocking. But the paradox of the narrow path is that it is the narrow path that leads to the spacious life. The image I give of the controlling image is from Harry Potter and editor and Daniel.
Rich Villodas:
That might offend a lot of people on every side these days. Uh, at one point, uh, Harry Potter offended one group of people. Now it’s offending a whole bunch of other people. But in one of the books, uh, there was this image of, uh, Harry going with his friends, the Weasley family, into a narrow tent, uh, for this Quidditch festival. But this tent had been charmed, so that on the outside, it looks like 2 or 3 people can get in there. But on the inside, when they walked in, because it was charmed, they walk into this like two storey flat, you know, bedrooms, kitchen, all the rest there. And the image when I was reading that was, oh yes, this is the narrow path of Jesus on the outside. It looks restrictive, it looks constraining. But when you get in, It actually leads to the kind of spaciousness that our souls, that our communities, that our churches are really longing for. And that’s the paradox of the Jesus way. To be the greatest, you need to become least to be first. You need to become last. To want to have spaciousness, you need to enter the narrow way.
Daniel Yang:
A lot of our listeners are pastors. They’ve probably preached through this passage, you know, a couple of different times, and oftentimes we’re tempted to primarily frame it, as you said, you know this are you on the narrow path, the path that leads to heaven? How do you talk about this in a more broader way, where it’s not so individualistic, and it is about how a community is choosing the way of Jesus, especially in our cultural time right now?
Rich Villodas:
Yeah. From I mean, I think it’s impossible to understand the sermon on the Mount without that collective, um, understanding. When Jesus talks about us being salt and light at the very beginning of the sermon on the Mount, right after the Beatitudes, he’s not talking about us as individuals, but as the community of God, as followers of Jesus. And so everything that Jesus writes about, um has to do with our life together and our life before one another, which is why one of the I address three the way that I’m framing it, three particular angles that I think Jesus is looking at in the sermon on the Mount, where he’s resisting this idea of moralism, sexism, and individualism. And I think the individualism part of it is where our lives, our relationship with God. And this sounds so on the nose and so cliché, like our proof of our relationship with God or our love for God is in our love for neighbor. And it’s just like, of course, that’s right. Uh, and yet, I think Jesus is trying to underline that in the sermon on the Mount, that how we view our neighbor and love our neighbor is actually proof of our relationship with God. And but it has everything to do with our life together. Yeah.
Ed Stetzer:
And I keep coming back to that theme of life together, which I think is important. Essential. Um, the Harry Potter reference. You’re it’s a safe place for Harry Potter references here. It’s just a safe place.
Ed Stetzer:
We like you.
Ed Stetzer:
We like, we like them. No, no controversies here. So, um, but the I guess the when you talk about the, the narrow path and the broad path again, we often think of that Soteriologically, you know, Jesus says, I am the way, the truth and the life. No one. That’s the narrow way. But and again, I think that that is a fine and correct understanding of that. But I do find what I found most interesting was your idea that the narrow path led to the spacious life? Yeah. Because right now, I mean, again, the world’s on fire and we all feel the anxiety and the stress and more. So I’m interested. I want to get to the community part, but let’s talk personally for just a second. But I do want to ask you how you’re doing this at your church, particularly in this election year. But how are we calling people personally that narrow path, that spacious life? And what does it look like when we’re on the broad path? So we know, because again, the broad path is not is not in this context is not just soteriological. So how do we know where we’re on the broad path?
Rich Villodas:
Yeah. You know, I think at the very beginning Jesus lets us know what the narrow path consists of? Even in the blessings, the Beatitudes. And so Jesus is trying to help us understand in the sermon on the Mount what truly the good life is. What is what are the values of the Kingdom of God that should anchor our lives and even from the very beginning? Who are those who are blessed? Who are those who are ultimately seen by God as those with joy, happiness, those who have something to offer the world. And so those who are on the broad path have a radically different value system than what Jesus underscores, primarily in the Beatitudes and then beyond. That’s the broad path. And so the narrow path is blessed are those who are poor in spirit. Blessed are those who mourn. Blessed are those who are meek. Uh, that’s the value system that Jesus is calling us to be oriented around. The broad path is not. Blessed are those who are poor in spirit. The it’s not blessed are those who are meek, is blessed, are those who are tough and strong and work worked and worked their way with power in this world here. And so the broad path is a radically different value system, uh, that is opposed to what Jesus lays out in the sermon on the Mount. Beyond that, the broad, the broad path is really a life that, uh, is oriented around externals and behaviors rather than heart transformation. Over and over in the sermon on the Mount, Jesus has this refrain.
Rich Villodas:
You have heard it said, but I say unto you, and Jesus does not let us get off, get you know, let us off the hook with some easy religiosity. You know, in one case, he says, he says, you know, you have heard it said, you shall not commit murder. And it seems as if people are like really patting themselves on the back here saying, you haven’t murdered anyone today I’m doing a pretty good job. And Jesus says, no, no, no. Um, what true success and life looks like in the kingdom of God is not simply not murdering someone with your hands or with a weapon, but the murder that lives within you in your heart because of the anger that you’re nurturing and keeping alive and so the broad path is I have not done anything. I have not explicitly violated something, uh, specifically within those ten commandments. Uh, but there’s something deeper that Jesus wants to transform. And then again, the broad path, I think, is that individualism. It’s it’s the it’s the me and God life. It’s just, uh, the only thing that matters is my relationship to God. Not so much my relationship with my neighbor. And, uh, whoever’s on that broad path is going to have a sense of individualism, a wrong sense of what success is in the world and a life that lives on the surface. And I think Jesus is confronting us over and over again in those three particular areas.
Ed Stetzer:
Yeah. Individual.
Ed Stetzer:
You talk about several of those things. Um, lean in though, for me. And again, I don’t want to, you know, narrow and broad. I don’t want to hermeneutic do hermeneutical violence here and say, let’s keep pushing and push and pushing, but let’s maybe even broaden the question so we don’t have to use those two categories unless you want to. Um, pastors and church leaders are our listeners. It’s literally called the church Leaders podcast. So when pastors and church leaders are living in that way of Jesus, that subversive way of Jesus that satisfies our souls. Again, the book is not written for pastors. It’s for it’s for everybody. But talk to us about what that looks like. You’re a pastor. You’ve seen the good, the bad and the ugly. What does it look like when pastors are not living out that narrow path, subversive way of Jesus?
Rich Villodas:
Well, I’ll think about a couple. I’ll offer a few for reflections on what Jesus talks about. Um, first of all, let’s look at anger, for example. For example, uh, I just mentioned that Jesus don’t commit murder. But if you’re living with anger, um, I think it’s very easy for pastors to pastor in such a way, uh, where we are keeping anger alive within us and, um, and, and transmitting that into the congregations that we lead in such a way that does damage to our witness to Jesus, uh, in the political moment that we’re in right now. I think we’re seeing a lot of that where instead, and it’s not the anger. I think Dale Bruner has helped me with this, one of my favorite New Testament scholars, where he would say that word anger. You know, if you if you’re angry with your brother or sister, you’ve already committed murder. He’s not talking about anger as like a passing moment. He’s talking about the nurturing of it, the keeping it alive. Uh, you are you are fueling this anger in such a way that leads to that word Raqqa. Uh, which is not a word that we use in our time today, but it’s a word with such contempt that lives within us. I think as pastors, being mindful of the ways that we live in an angry Raqqa world, um, and in our preaching, in our social media presence, uh, there is a way where we are fueling a particular kind of community that’s not marked by, um, the subversive, loving, merciful, compassionate way of Jesus.
Rich Villodas:
Not that we’re winking at injustice or turning our eyes to the things that are wrong in the world, but that we’re living in a way that’s marked by a subversive way of Jesus. So I think about anger as one. For example, I think about our words Jesus. Jesus says, let your yes be yes and your no be no. What does it look like to have integrity with our words as pastors? What does it look like to create communities where there is integrity with our words and honesty with our words? We live in a world that where there’s so much lying going on in big ways and in seemingly small ways. But as a pastor, to what degree are we leading our people into truthfulness and honesty and integrity with our words, with one to another? So just a few ways that I think about how this looks like for us as pastors and the kind of communities that we’re actually shaping and forming in the name of Jesus.
Daniel Yang:
You know, I think about, uh, Dallas Willard and Divine Conspiracy, and he walks through a lot of lot of these concepts and the power of invitation and how when you ask and knock and seek that the demand that it places on people and and I’m curious, Rich, given what you’re saying, especially right now, where it’s tempting for pastors and preachers in particular, to adopt a framework where the rhetoric is very, uh, polemical and it’s very, uh, rhetorical and probably the negative sense. Um, how do we speak, um, in a convincing way, persuasive way, where we’re not taking on the polemical framework that maybe we’re taking from other worldly ideas? And how do we speak in a way that actually can sound passionate, but that’s not angry, can persuade but not manipulate?
Ed Stetzer:
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Rich Villodas:
I think one of the things that’s helped me most as a pastor over the last 7 or 8 years has been a particular angle of family systems theory. In family systems, there’s this phrase called differentiation and differentiation. I think ultimate differentiation is what John, the Gospel of John, says about Jesus, that he’s filled with grace and truth. Uh, differentiation is our ability to distinguish ourselves from another without disconnecting from them. Uh, our ability to remain close to God, close to ourselves, and close to others in times of high anxiety, without the without succumbing to the polar opposite pull of cutting people off or being enmeshed into them. I think as pastors, that’s really the invitation before us today to live in a to live as a calm presence in the world where we are taking a stand now. Now, hopefully this is where things get really muddy. And this is why I wrote the sermon on the Mount, because lots of people are saying, I’m taking a stand. I’m taking a stand for Jesus. The question is, to what degree is that stand reflective of the sermon on the Mount? To what degree is it look like Jesus? But our ability to take a stand fueled by gospel imperatives, fueled by the ethic of Jesus and the Kingdom of God, but at the same time remaining emotionally close to others.
Rich Villodas:
As a pastor of a church that has 75 nations represented in a neighborhood where 123 languages are spoken, where there is incredible diversity across politics, theology, generation, socioeconomics. My greatest task over the last 11, 12 years that I’ve been leading this congregation has been what does it look like to declare some things, hopefully in alignment with the gospel, but to remain emotionally connected to one another? And I think that’s the invitation for pastors right now. How do we remain connected to one another, especially in times of high anxiety? We actually did this in 2020, uh, during the election, where we had a zoom event for, uh, Biden and Trump supporters, and we had a conversation for two hours with our congregation, with two of our elders, actually, who led that, who were part of that discussion. But, Daniel, I think our ability to be a calm presence not marked by reactivity, not fueled by anxiety, taking a stand, hopefully, and fueled by the gospel, informed by the gospel, but remaining emotionally connected. That’s the task of pastoral leadership in this generation.
Ed Stetzer:
Yeah, that’s I mean.
Ed Stetzer:
And that’s a string of words together that I think you’ve got to have each of them, you know, ultimately ending with staying connected. But but I do I mean, you’re in a, you’re in a very blue state. I’m in a very blue state. Um, but my, my part of the blue state is, is much more of a red part of the state where yours is not so.
Rich Villodas:
Well, I would say, however, queens is much different than Manhattan. For sure. For sure. So I would I would say, um, for example, in, uh, in in 2020, I would say 30% voted for Trump, 30% voted for Biden. In our congregation, I would say 20% probably voted for Spider-Man because he’s from Queens. And then someone you know, and lots of folks can’t even vote because of their immigration status. Uh, and so I think Manhattan certainly has a more left leaning side, but I think Queens is a bit more diverse, in my opinion.
Ed Stetzer:
Just so you know, I’m actually aware that New York City is not just the island of Manhattan, having been taken home to, uh, to Floral Park as a child and then living out on Long Island.
Ed Stetzer:
We talked about.
Rich Villodas:
That a few months ago, and I and my heart just like, was like moved towards you even more because of that connection.
Ed Stetzer:
I know, I know, well, I gotta I gotta get out there. I like we have an extension center at Talbot in, uh, Brooklyn. So I like, have students and I haven’t gotten there yet in New York City. I went all the way to Kyiv to meet my students in Kyiv. I haven’t gone New York City yet, but.
Ed Stetzer:
I’ll get to Brooklyn.
Ed Stetzer:
And we’ll have to go out. And you’ll have to introduce me to the awesomeness of your of your neighborhood. But, you know, one of the things right now that a lot of pastors are hearing is, is particularly maybe it’s not just in red states, but just in general. You need to speak more on some of these issues. And I’m I’m depends on what the issues. But I’m of the view that that when it comes to biblical teaching, clarity is kindness. So we don’t hold our we don’t hide our controversial views on issues that are now outside of the mainstream of culture. But I just think I think clarity is kindness. I think it matters that we do those things. So. So with that being said, you know, how would you respond to the idea to know we’re in a we’re in a we’re in a cultural collapse and Christian pastors need to speak up more on things that the world might see as partisan, but are really moral and civilizational issues. How do you navigate that? A lot of people are getting pressure and not sure how to respond.
Rich Villodas:
I mean, back to the I get that, first of all, I get that on a regular basis. Why aren’t we talking about whatever, fill in the blank and in a congregation as diverse as ours. I could get two emails in a given week, uh, from vastly different perspectives. Uh, and so, um, I think so much of this is contextual, uh, and to what I think our the greatest temptation I have, especially in my social media presence, is to pastor, not my congregation, but the people who are following me on social media. And when I think about the conversations that people want me to have on social media versus the conversations people want me to have in my local church, it’s often very different. And so that’s my first act of discernment, you know, am I? Is what I’m speaking up on now, um, really connected to people in the room, so to speak, or in this community or that kind of invisible mirage of people out there that I want to make, make sure I’m appeasing. Uh, and so I think that’s number one. That discernment part is really important. Um I agree with clarity is kindness. I also think that clarity is kindness in a particular context. And I think some of these massive conversations requires particular contexts for conversations. For example, last year we did a whole ten week series on human sexuality in our church, and we realized that it wasn’t just enough to preach and say, this is where we stand on a particular issue, but that we needed lots of different spaces because of the vast diversity in our congregation to say, this is where we’re at.
Rich Villodas:
But what are the questions you’re holding? What’s the perspective you have? What’s the pushback that you might have? And we did that for ten weeks talking about all matters of things pertaining to human sexuality. And so, uh, I think the challenge I find myself in editor and I don’t have a full answer for this. The last for last eight years, really, it’s almost as if every 2 or 3 weeks, I’m having to think about a pastoral statement regarding something. Right. And that is so fatiguing. Yeah. It’s fatiguing. And so, um, this is I’m glad for an elder board that I can, uh, you know, lead with. I’m glad for a pastoral staff team, I think. So I think that’s probably the more general principle I can offer to pastors and leaders. To what degree are we, uh, discerning these really big issues as to what we should address with a team of people not, you know, taking these things on your own because it’s overwhelming. Every 2 to 3 weeks, there’s something else to publicly address. And I think sometimes I’m like a public relations kind of person as opposed to a pastor because of all the, you know, all the things I have to address in a week in and week out basis. So I think that that wisdom and that community is probably the best way that I can explain, you know, um, uh, help other pastors think through some of these big issues.
Daniel Yang:
Yeah.
Daniel Yang:
Rich, let’s, let’s dig into that a little bit because, I mean, um, you know, Jesus is just talking about the need to let our light shine to be salt and light, but then also to do things in the hidden places, you know. Don’t let your left hand know what your right hand is doing when it comes to giving, especially helping those in need. As you’re thinking about what it means to be a pastor in public, not everybody listening is going to have a similar platform to you. But how do you navigate that? How do you navigate the fact that, like, you want to speak about something publicly but you don’t want to virtue signal? Yeah. And then how do you show the good things that you’re doing in the fruit of your ministry, knowing full well that there’s a temptation now towards celebrityism, and we’re all trying to avoid that. So talk about that.
Rich Villodas:
I live with I’m grateful for mentors. I’m grateful for people who have helped point out a number of different blind spots. Um, so personally, I live under great fear of something. Uh, thanks to my mentor, a guy by the name of Pete Scazzero. I remember when I asked Pete before I wrote my first book, I said, Pete, can I get some advice around publishing writing? And he said, well, give me two weeks and then we’ll talk in your office. Two weeks passed. He came in with his, you know, his legal pad and sat down. And maybe his third or fourth sentence was essentially this I Rich, I want to let you know your soul is in great danger. Wow. I’m thinking, man, I just I just wanted to know when you start a chapter, should I start with, like, a story, a statistic, you know? How should a personal anecdote. That’s what I really want to know. And it goes to your soul.
Ed Stetzer:
That’s.
Ed Stetzer:
That’s hardcore, man.
Rich Villodas:
And he just let me know. He said, these are all the temptations that are going to come your way now. Yeah. And for 45 minutes, he listed off temptation after temptation after temptation. He’s been absolutely right. Uh, over the last four years that I’ve experienced since my first book came out. And so.
Ed Stetzer:
And to be.
Ed Stetzer:
Clear, your book became Christianity Today Book of the year. So, I mean, all those things, I’ve never had those temptations. I, I’m willing to face that temptation.
Ed Stetzer:
So and I had no clue.
Rich Villodas:
What was coming. I’m thinking now, first of all, I was very angry at Pete because I was just like, I want to encourage. And then at the end he said, you’re going to be great, though, rich. And he slapped me in the back and walked out the room. I was like, that’s not what I was hoping for, man. Um, but I really do live with a sense that whenever I’m somewhere, um, speaking, especially in powerful places, uh, wealthy places, um, my soul is in great danger. And so I have to thank Pete for number one, that, uh, to live with a sense of sobriety around. Hey, you’re in a dangerous place right now. But secondly, I, um. Daniel, if I can be honest, man, this is an ongoing struggle for me every week. Of what does it mean to steward, I think, what God has entrusted me with, but to do it in such a way where, um, it’s it’s not about me trying to work out my own personal gaps, uh, through what people are thinking about me. And I’m not sure if, um, to what degree I’ll get beyond that. All the only thing I can say is it’s a regular point of prayer and reflection for me. Um, you know, how do I how do I have, you know, reading the sermon on the Mount, Jesus talks about Hiddenness and he talks about doing things, you know, to your point, doing things, not letting your left hand know what your right hand is doing. And then, you know, let your light so shine that they see. Glorify your father in heaven. I’m just like Jesus. Which one is it? Uh, and I think this is an ongoing point of prayer and reflection that I have, which means it’s a weekly struggle for me. And but I really do thank God for Pete’s kind of word of warning to me. You know, five years ago saying, Rich, your soul is in danger. I live with that on a regular basis.
Ed Stetzer:
Yeah. Let’s let’s press in on that for a more pastoral application, too, because because again, I think he was warning you. You know, the book and the authorial status changes things. And I feel that and I get it. Um, the, the, the pastor has kind of that soul danger could be on a regular basis the need for admiration from people. And that’s very much I mean, very. Many pastors are people pleasers are more so. But again, you talk about this. So. Talk to us. How Jesus how did Jesus resist responding to admiration from people in an unhealthy way?
Ed Stetzer:
Yeah.
Rich Villodas:
You know, there was this one passage in the Gospels where he says he knew he knew what was in the hearts of people. He did not entrust himself to them. Uh, I think Jesus models for us, um, uh, what it means to live in deep communion with the father, out of which he preaches and lives his life. And so while we don’t see that in the sermon on the Mount, of course we see that in Luke four and Matthew four of his baptism, and the voice of the father spoken over him, this is my son, whom I love, and him I’m well pleased. Um, I think Jesus lived from a deep center of God’s love and from that place. And, um, I think that’s the invitation for for me and every other pastor. To what degree am I making space to hear, to receive, to live from a place of God’s affirmation over my life. And again, that that is not a weekly thing. I think that’s a daily thing. Um, because we live in, you know, what some have called, you know, generation notification where our wellbeing is often dependent upon the next notification we receive on social media. Um, it’s very easy to build our lives or have our lives built or crumbled based on the level of engagement we receive.
Rich Villodas:
Which is why, once again, I’m grateful for the monastic contemplative tradition that my grandfather introduced me to. And then later on, my college professors introduced me to that. Unless I’m really living from a place of trying to listen for the voice of Jesus in this particular moment, I’m going to be really swayed by the criticisms. Um, at the same time, here’s here’s the other thing that I just think about. I wonder if there’s a counter instinctual way of uh, of opening ourselves up to some things to remind us of where our identity truly is. Uh, for example, uh, during the pandemic, um, I, someone recommended it to me, and I decided to say yes to it. Where? Before we went live to to preach. Remember those days? Uh, I would preach my sermon before ten volunteers in the in the church, and they would give me feedback for about 20 minutes on my sermon, which every week was very humbling. Yeah. Wow. I didn’t know what you said there. I did that for a year, every week. And, um, for me, it was I think it was actually good for my soul. It was it was hard. It made me a better.
Ed Stetzer:
Good for your soul.
Ed Stetzer:
You mean crushing and causing you to rely on Jesus 100%?
Rich Villodas:
100%. Which is why I would say. Can you start with some good stuff first? Right. To start out, can we balance this stuff here? Uh, and limit your critique to one, you know, how about three affirmations and one critique so I can actually preach this thing in 45 minutes. Uh, but I think for me, the, you know, where is my identity really, really rooted in. And I think for pastors, that is a weekly thing of, of as my identity, which is I remember John Ortberg told the story about Dallas Willard and which whenever I train preachers, I remind them of it. He talked about Willard had preached at his church, and after he walked out, he wanted to have a conversation with Dallas about it. But Dallas, he said he’d let the image he gave was he let the sermon go like it was a balloon flying in the air, and he was ready for lunch. And Ortberg is like, you know, I want to talk about it. And he was just like, no, he was. He let it go. It was that was it. And I thought, yeah, I want to get to a point where I’m able just to let those things go, uh, which I think once again, to our earlier point that Daniel you mentioned, I think is a weekly thing of discipleship and formation in Jesus.
Daniel Yang:
You know, you’ve openly talked about, like being a recovering people pleaser and talked about like different reasons why you know, things that keep you from truthful relationships. Can you unpack some of those reasons?
Rich Villodas:
I mean, I want to be liked. I want everyone to like me. Um.
Ed Stetzer:
And just for the record, we do. Just wanted to say that I want to help.
Ed Stetzer:
You be freer to answer the question.
Ed Stetzer:
Affirmations. Yeah.
Rich Villodas:
Also, I mean, you know, to you something I know about myself and, you know, you kind of use, like, Enneagram kind of language here being a seven, I my, I, I move towards pain avoidance. I mean, so that’s just a big thing of my own personality. Uh, which is why, as another mentor said to me around this year, he said, you’re actually prone to addictive behaviors, uh, because of your pain avoidance. And so just being mindful of all the ways that, um, I, I have to do the counter instinctual thing. It’s actually it’s one of the reasons and I’m not saying this to toot my own horn here, I’m doing this because I’m trying to do the work of discipleship. I just had a 360 done on me with our staff team and um, and um, after the first two reads, it was like seven pages of notes from the person who facilitated it. I was like, I don’t think I need to be the pastor of this church any longer. Uh, and then by the fifth time I read it, I was like, okay, that’s that’s not too bad here. We’re doing okay.
Rich Villodas:
Uh, but it was another moment of my own growth in Jesus. I want to please everyone, and I realize I’m not pleasing a lot of people. Um, or some folks are not happy with things. What I’m doing here, I think it’s an ongoing point of interior examination for me, uh, where, um, I want to, in fact, I’ve discovered over the years. And this is back to, like, my own communion and stewardship of my leadership, I’m aware that no matter how large new life fellowship grows, it’s very easy that this church can be controlled by 1 or 2 people. Uh, the two, 1 or 2 people that I want to please or avoid the displeasure of. That’s a very frightening thing, that a church could be 10,000 people, but really, two people are controlling it. The two people that I don’t want to uh, displease. And, uh, so my ongoing work of formation is who am I trying to curry the favor of? Who am I trying to avoid the displeasure of? And, um, and bringing that to Jesus on a regular basis, especially in times of high anxiety?
Daniel Yang:
We’ve been talking to Rich Velotus. You can learn more about him and his ministry at Rich Velotus. Com and be sure to check out his book, The Narrow Path How the Subversive Way of Jesus Satisfies Satisfies Our Souls. Thanks again for listening to this Church Leaders podcast. You can find more interviews, as well as other great content from ministry leaders at Church leaders.com/podcast. And again, if you found our conversation today helpful, I’d love for you to take a few moments to leave us a review that will help other ministry leaders find us and benefit from our content. Thanks for listening. We’ll see you in the next episode.
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