“Which is something I really like about everything you’re saying today,” Paul told Osteen, “‘Cause even before [Majlak] asked about God, the things you’re saying, like the principles, make so much sense. You know, like, even just remove God from the equation for a second, what you’re saying logically makes sense.”
“There’s different routes for people that need different things, and I watch Cliffe on the campuses and stuff and [he and his son] are amazing and phenomenal,” Osteen replied. “It’s just this [is] what I feel like God’s given me. But it’s a big part of it, Logan, is not, we’re not here because we’re perfect…We all, you know, have things we need to improve in.”
“My thing is, am I better this year than I was five years ago? Am I growing? Am I forgiving more? Am I less judgmental? Am I better in my relationships?” Osteen explained. “I think that’s a big part of it. But not beating myself up just every day, saying, ‘You know what, I’m just this lousy sinner and I can’t do anything right.’ I just come from a different point of view.”
After commenting that “Cliffe does it better than me” as Osteen explained his views on the afterlife, the pastor told Paul, “The thief on the cross, he couldn’t do anything. He just said, ‘You know, can I be with you?’ And so, it’s the grace, you have to receive it.”
“And then I think, you know, the opposite is, there’s a hell, there’s a separation from God,” Osteen said. “I don’t know what that is, but if you’re separating from God, it’s not going to be anything good.”
“I believe that, but we were created to go to heaven. It was made for us and I believe God gives us all a chance,” said the pastor. “He calls us and it’s an act of faith. I think sometimes [in] your head, you can’t understand it, but it’s down in your heart. ‘Jesus, I believe you’re the Son of God.’ And, you know, that’s what I believe.”
“So, I think about it sometimes, too…I’ve had my struggles with sin. Still do,” said Majlak, who would mention later in the conversation that he was a Christian. At the beginning of the interview, Majlak had shared that he had been a heroin addict for 10 years. His mother, a “massive fan” of Osteen’s, was present during the interview and moved to tears at one point.
“My mom watched you through really dark days of my addiction,” Majlak told Osteen, saying that his mother “went through a lot…she didn’t know who to turn to and she turned to you.”
After Majlak noted that he still struggled with sin, he asked Osteen, “Do you think there’s different area codes in heaven for people that did better in life?” For example, a preacher might get an expensive house while other people have to stay in a “favela” (a Portuguese word referring to a Brazilian shantytown).
“I’ve never studied it all,” Osteen said. “I think that you’re going to receive forgiveness and it’s going to be a place that’s amazing and that, you know what, it’s the grace of God, because all of us have something and plenty of things.”
“But, you know, it does say you’re going to be rewarded for what you’ve done,” said Osteen. “I don’t know that I understand it all, but I don’t think there’s going to be different neighborhoods like that.”
“Do you think that this separation from God that leads you to eternal damnation is a little bit more of like a active step,” Majlak asked, “where someone might actively reject God…and maybe even tell others he’s not real, like this isn’t real, or even go even further and worship the devil or some sort of pagan god?”
“I don’t know, Mike,” Osteen answered. “You got to get somebody that’s more skilled on it…I know it’s separation from God. I know we don’t want to be there, so I hadn’t studied much about it.”
