Lysa TerKeurst on The Stetzer ChurchLeaders Podcast.mp3: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

Lysa TerKeurst on The Stetzer ChurchLeaders Podcast.mp3: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Voice Over:
Welcome to the Stetzer Church Leaders Podcast, conversations with today’s top ministry leaders to help you lead better every day. And now, here are your hosts, Ed Stetzer and Daniel Yang.

Daniel Yang:
Welcome to the Sets of Church Leaders podcast, where we’re helping Christian leaders navigate and lead through the cultural issues of our day. My name is Daniel Yang, national director of Churches of Welcome at World Relief. And today we’re talking to Lysa Terkeurst, Lisa’s president and chief visionary officer of Proverbs 31 ministries and the author of several New York Times bestsellers, including Good Boundaries and Goodbyes, Forgiving What You Can’t Forget, and It’s Not Supposed to Be This Way. Her latest book is I Want to Trust You, but I don’t. Moving forward, when you’re skeptical of others, afraid of what God will allow and doubtful of your own discernment. Now let’s go to Ed Stetzer, editor in chief of Outreach Magazine and the dean of the Talbot School of Theology. Lisa, I think.

Ed Stetzer:
We have to comment on the fact that that is the longest subtitle book in the history of publishing, but it covers some some key things that are in there. We’re we’re glad to have you on the program and good to good to see you again. It’s been a, been a, been a long, long time. So we’re going to talk some about issues of, you know, of trust. Um, you know, and how do we engage in the kind of rightful building of those bridges that trust involves? And more so you write this, you say we aren’t made to let skepticism be our primary filter through which we see God and others, unquote. First of all, I want to say, you do say to you, do you realize it’s 2024? That’s how everybody looks at everybody else. And if so, why did you decide to write a book on trust and anything significant about the timing in your own journey?

Lysa TerKeurst:
Well, I have been through a pretty significant betrayal, not just within the death of my marriage and the divorce that I walked through, the very unwanted divorce that I walked through, but also the fallout of other friendships and, um, dynamics. You know, it’s interesting, the statistics today I read an interesting research project that said the average American lies or is deceitful on average four times a day. Um, actually, the statistics for men are a little higher. They say six times a day and then women are 3 to 4. So. But they say like on average Americans lie four times a day. So. And those aren’t always have to be big lies. But you know, like saying we’re fine when we’re really not fine or saying we that traffic is really bad when the truth is we left our house later than we wanted to, you know? Um, so we live in a in a world where sometimes truth is what ever protects us. And, you know, of course, as Christians, we want truth to be in alignment with the actual facts and and even more so in alignment with God’s Word. Um, but that’s not what we’re experiencing. And the gap between what we want. We want people to be honest, and we want people like we want to be able to believe that they are who they say they are. They’re going to do what they say they’re going to do. They’re going to be what they say they’re going to be. That’s what we want. But there’s a gap between what we want. And sometimes a lot of times what we actually experience. And so this book isn’t just for people who’ve experienced huge betrayals in relationships, but it’s also, for most of us, walking around with a general sense of skepticism. And maybe we don’t even know why.

Daniel Yang:
Lisa, can you define or frame for us the word trust, and then maybe share why you’ve struggled with the words specifically trust issues in the past?

Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah, well, let’s do the second question first. So trust issues. Sometimes if people weaponize that phraseology then it could be like, oh, Daniel has trust issues. And that sounds like it’s like a disease or a bad diagnosis or some fundamental flaw in your psyche. You know when. So in the book I am very intentional about encouraging people. We all have trust issues. Let’s just level the playing field, you know, and just say, this is something that’s common to us all and not weaponize that phraseology as if there’s something wrong with this. But rather, let’s acknowledge, of course, we have trust issues. We all have them. Now, what do we do about our busted up trust so that that’s that? And then what is trust like? What makes up trust within the context of a relationship? In order to have trust in a relationship, you have to have safety and connection. So trust is really the oxygen of all human relationships. And in order to have it, we have to have safety and connection. What can happen sometimes is when we’ve had our trust broken, some of us start to prioritize connection so much like we’re so desperate to have this relationship, keep this relationship, um, that we we prioritize connection and we diminish our own need for safety. Um, and safety means not just physically safe, but it also means emotionally safe. Like, is this person being honest, truthful, you know, are they are they like, really going to come through for us all of that. Other people prioritize safety so high that they diminish connection. And so that’s more my tendency where I just want to isolate because I realize all connection is risky. You connect with another human and there’s inherent risk involved. And so I will prioritize safety so high that I want to I don’t want to experience any relational risk. So the goal of this book is to bring those back in more of an equilibrium, to say, our goal here is to go after connections that are safe, that can foster and breed real trust in relationships.

Ed Stetzer:
Yeah. I think one of the things that, of course, our audiences, pastors and church leaders and the book by the book title does remind everyone is I want to trust you, but I don’t. Moving forward, when you’re skeptical of others, afraid of what God will allow and doubtful of your own discernment. And you know, I will tell you that this is a really a defining life experience for pastors is how do we trust? Who do we trust? Um, you know, when you get that phone call, you know, and you look down at that caller ID, people get nervous, they feel their trust, you know? Hey, I just want to. I want to talk to you about something. Well, really, I’m leaving the church mad, and I’m coming to tell you. So I know that pastors really struggle with this issue of trust. And I think in some of it, it’s because trust is sort of placed in this Christian category that I, I mean, I just have to now abandon all skepticism, but and instead just offer complete trust to every person over and over again. So talk to us some about the you write about this in the book, but some of the misperceptions Christians tend to have about trust and forgiveness. And if you can help it, to apply it to some of the pastor and church leader world in which we’re talking to.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Absolutely. Um, so first of all, I want to say to any pastor or ministry leader out there, I get it. And of course, you’re struggling with trust. Of course. Um, because when you’re in a dynamic of leading people and especially people who are messy, you know, and I mean, that’s all of us, then you’re going to have dynamics often where people will say, I’ll be loyal to a fault. You know, like, no matter what, I’m with you, I’m a die hard. I’m, you know, I’ll never leave. But then over time, as you experience that dynamic of this person leaving, that person leaving, or this person betraying you, that person betraying you. Um, it can, it can. It’s not just what happens to us. Those things are hard. But then it’s the narrative that we start to tell ourselves behind what’s happening to us. So I want to say to church leaders and ministry leaders, of course you have this feeling because it’s been reinforced over and over and over, and now we can’t control what other people do. But what we do have to work on is the narrative that we’re telling ourselves. And that’s where the real work can happen. I think when we look at trust, especially in the dynamics of leadership, we have to understand that as we step into leadership, we’re kind of signing up for this. So the stability can’t be in making sure to always attract the perfect congregation or always attract the perfect employees. The real goal here has to be to create an inner stability. Recognizing our trust is going to get broken, but it shouldn’t break us in the process.

Ed Stetzer:
Yeah, and I think you’re right. We are signing up for this. And and I am not one of those people who thinks that. And I don’t go around saying pastor is the most miserable job in the world or anything of that sort. I know there are some people, and I think that’s an overstatement, but there is something, um, it’s just unique that you create these rapid bonds with people that go in ways that you don’t at work and, and family has, you know, sometimes decades. But you create these rapid bonds with people built on trust and mutual understanding of what you’re trying to do in the gospel. And I think pastors do feel betrayed a lot. So then what happens is it’s sort of like this, like this other direction. And it’s like, well, I don’t want to get close to people. And sometimes it’s to protect family, you know, kids. Well, we used to play with those kids at church and they’re gone now. So I mean, I feel this like deeply. So I guess the question is, is and this is, you know, again, I want to direct people to the book as well. And it would be helpful for you. I want to trust you, but I don’t. So you talked about that balance. Is that balance different when you’re dealing with people from, again, a clergy slash congregant kind of relationship or is it the same? Are there lessons to learn for both? And again, I hate the word clergy congregant, but I think you get what I’m trying to say.

Lysa TerKeurst:
I absolutely do. I think you’re very wise in pointing out that we go deep really fast when we’re in a church environment where we’re in an environment where we’re healing and learning and discipling and growing spiritually, emotionally, you know, all of that. So, yes, I mean, typically when people have come, when people are coming to the church, they’re bringing hurt, they’re bringing problems, they’re bringing questions that they want solutions and answers for. And so when when we can give them help for their hurt, then those bonds really do go deep and go fast. I do think what you said also earlier is really profound and really important, and it’s something I spend a lot of time in the book talking about, that there is this pressure on Christians and maybe even especially Christian leaders, to always believe the best about other people. It’s almost like, okay, if you love God, then you have to trust unconditionally. And I make a case in the book that not only is that not smart to do, but it’s not biblical either. We’re not to use foolish trust. We’re to use wise trust. And trust is built time plus believable behavior. And so when you have time with people and they demonstrate believable behavior over a long period of time, you have a track record with that person that. Yes, at that point you can absolutely believe the best about them, but also realize all humans are going to make mistakes. And a mistake or a breach in trust doesn’t mean that the relationship’s going to fall apart or that that person isn’t trustworthy. There’s a big difference between a mistake and a pattern of behavior. As church leaders, I think part of us recognizing wise trust, we have to know the difference between those two. We’re all going to make mistakes. But then we also have to recognize there are patterns of behavior that can become safe, unsafe not only for us, but also for other people around and respond accordingly.

Daniel Yang:
I like that time. Plus believable. Believable behavior. Lisa, let’s talk about, like, projection. Sometimes we project onto people things that we’re feeling, things that we’ve experienced. And so. And we’re triggered by a particular experience. How can somebody specifically church leaders, but anybody, how can they discern the difference between something that’s being triggered from a past experience and an actual experience that is actually maybe wrong or harmful to them?

Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah, I tell about it. An experience in the book where, um, I, I had a new friend and this new friend had come to visit, and the goodbye was very rushed. And when it was time for them to, to say goodbye, they had a meeting that came up. And instead of leaving at 4:00 that afternoon, they had to leave at 8:00 that morning. And the goodbye was so rushed and the motion of them rushing out, just like, hey, I’ve got to go somewhere. I’m so sorry. And seeing a suitcase wheeled behind was a massive trigger for me because in my previous marriage, that kind of goodbye meant that my heart was about to get shattered. And so we all have experiences where a flash of something that’s just too close to a really hurtful experience that we’ve had before is going to trigger that kind of pain. There’s such a paper thin line between trigger from past hurt and discernment of like whether is, is this a warning or is this something that that I should just recognize as it’s okay, you know. And so in the book, I talk about talking to a betrayal therapist, someone who’s very, very educated in how to handle betrayal. And her answer to me was investigate. Now, I didn’t like that answer. That answer felt icky and sticky because what do you mean, investigate? And I don’t mean like, oh, start stalking this person and looking through their social media and all of that. That’s not what I’m saying, but I’m saying ask clarifying questions, get curious, not furious, and without placing judgment on that person, ask them some questions and say, hey, like I got a little, um, like weird feeling or maybe even a misunderstanding. And and so I just want to ask you a couple of questions about what I just experienced. And here’s the real telltale sign of whether it’s discernment or maybe a trigger.

Ed Stetzer:
The Setzer Church Podcast is part of the Church Leaders Podcast Network, which is dedicated to resourcing church leaders in order to help them face the complexities of ministry. Today, the Church Leaders Podcast Network supports pastors and ministry leaders by challenging assumptions, by providing insights and offering practical advice and solutions and steps that will help church leaders navigate the variety of cultures and contexts that we’re serving and learn more at Church leaders.com/podcast network.

Lysa TerKeurst:
If they get incredibly defensive, they get angry. They shame you for asking those questions. They act inconvenienced and put off. You might be experiencing some discernment that something’s off here. If they are kind and they’re like, of course you need to ask that question. Absolutely. I welcome providing clarity, you know, because clarity is just only a conversation away. Let’s have that conversation then. Maybe it’s trigger from past pain because when they respond that gently and that honestly and that openly, um, it’s not true all the time. But I would say most times that is the reassurance you need. Our brains are wired for the confidence of knowing. So our brain is always wanting to be in a situation where it can analyze that we’re safe. But when that’s disrupted by something that seems hurtful or fearful or something confusing we don’t understand. We must seek clarity. And when the other person provides it, oftentimes the trust is reestablished immediately and we carry on. And that relationship feels even more safe because of how that person responded.

Ed Stetzer:
You’re helpful. And that builds that. That trust and build trust builds on trust as well. So again, the book is I want to trust you, but I don’t. All right. So you I mean, you kind of talked a little bit about your own personal situation and that’s and you work through walk through obviously a lot of pain that makes news. And because of your prominence as a writer and a and a leader. So I know you’ve recently gotten remarried. Uh, you’ve been open about the betrayal, um, in just minutes ago. But in other places you experience in your, in your prior marriage. Um, and you also shared that some people then assume that, well, you’re in a new relationship, you’re in a new marriage, and all your struggles are resolved now that you’re in that new relationships, uh, relationship. So but you also indicate that’s a misconception? How about explaining how is God? Continue to work in your heart and when it comes to trust and your desire for things being made right?

Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah, well, I’m a newlywed. And so, you know, when people say, is it really all it’s cracked up to be? I’m like, yes, I am so happy to be in a relationship where there’s trust. There’s no history of betrayal. Um, where I’m treasured and I’m honored. And that all feels amazing. And at the same time, it doesn’t fix anything that’s broken inside of me. And so I think it’s important for us to understand we can be in the best dynamic of our life. You know, as a church leader, we could step into this wonderful church where everybody is loving on us and and being kind and receptive to our ministry and where we are really engaging and connecting with them. And we see lives being changed and we see all of that. It can be the best dynamic in the world, and it’s not going to fix anything that is broken from previous past trust issues and previous past betrayals. So that’s something that’s a personal journey that external external circumstances don’t automatically fix, internal realities that need to be healed. And so that’s one of the main reasons I wrote I want to trust you, but I don’t, because I think a lot of us think, okay, things will be better when you know, things will be better when we get through the year end campaign and the budget looks awesome, things will be better when instead of only 200 people coming to the church, we have 400 people coming to the church.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Things will be better when I have a board of directors that better supports me, you know, and we we have all these things and we keep attaching our hope on this carrot that’s being dangled in front of us. But it’s it’s such a lie that that’s not that’s not that those things are never going to give us the stability that we want. Things will be better when we decide that there’s an internal stability that we need to gain, both in our relationship with God and in the healing that needs to happen, so that we don’t have so much unresolved hurt and pain that we’re carrying into future relationships, and potentially even projecting them onto people who don’t deserve it.

Ed Stetzer:
Yeah, there’s a pretty common pattern that I’ve seen in pastors and church leaders who, if they’re in an maybe an unhealthy, unhealthy church situation. Now, mind you, I don’t think that I think pastors and church leaders can cause their unhealthy church situations, but in this scenario, they’re in an unhealthy situation and they they get out of it to another one, and then they’re almost in the same situation. And I and I remember saying to one, you know, you keep bringing you with you and you haven’t addressed some of I mean, you change the as you put it, you change the external situation, but the internal still is there and it sort of keeps coming back up. And I think that’s again how because you keep talking about that place of discernment and, and I agree with you. And again, I want to I want to encourage people to get the book and read about it. Right. So so again, I want to trust you, but I don’t. But I also there’s a certain frustration, Lisa, that in the midst of agreeing with you, I don’t know where that fine line always is. So what advice would you give? Because if I don’t as a, as a pastor and a church leader and I’m just a teaching pastor at Mariner’s Church now, but even here, when I started here about a year in at the Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, I had to extend trust to a group of people. And so far I should say that that’s not been been a problem. But I had to, like, I don’t have time to see like, I got to trust you before I know you and pastors and church leaders need to do that all the time. So how do you encourage that? Again, this book is not just for pastors and church leaders, but you’ve been around. So how do you encourage pastors and church leaders to find that line? What does that look like as I wrestle through it?

Lysa TerKeurst:
Well, I think there’s wise trust and there’s foolish trust. So if we are believing the best about someone because the actions that we see right in front of us in the immediate interaction with them. Um, then, you know, recognize there’s going to be risk there, but it’s okay to believe the best about them because you’re making the wisest decision you can with the information that you have. Now. At the same time, I think it’s also good to pay attention to red flags so that our wise trust doesn’t turn into foolish trust. So in the book, I want to trust you, but I don’t. I spend quite a bit of time going through 11 red flags and really helping people see what to look for, and also the spectrums of severity. So for example, an integrity issue and broken trust because of an integrity issue is a lot different and a lot a lot more severe than an irresponsible like a tendency to be irresponsible with someone. And so I when we have distrust that starts to invade, we’ve got to ask ourselves where is the root of this distrust? And so that’s why I spend a lot of time breaking it down, because trust is such a big word. And like you said, we step into a dynamic dynamic and it’s like, wow, we have to trust these people in order to function because that’s just the job and that’s what’s required, you know? But at the same time, it’s also good. We’re not we don’t want to investigate people and expect the worst. Yes. Believe the best until they beg you otherwise. But there are red flags that we can pay attention to. And again, the quicker that we address something we’re seeing and we seek clarity for it, the less we will fill in the gap with our own narrative. And that’s how we can establish wise trust is by paying attention to the red flags, looking and and being honest with ourselves about what we’re seeing, and being willing to have some of the harder conversations that seek clarity.

Ed Stetzer:
Okay. So you mentioned the I mean, the list of flags that are in the book. And again, people can can pick up the book and they’ll be able to go through. I want to trust you, but I don’t. Okay. But as you look at them, I mean, you got them all in your head. Um, what are a couple others that you might say that pastors and church leaders should be aware of those red flags, which should then cause us to consider how quickly to extend trust.

Lysa TerKeurst:
One of my favorites that we need to pay attention to is an inflated sense of self. When someone tries to convince you that your success depends on their contribution to your life. Um, that’s a big red flag and inflated sense of self can play out like nobody will ever love you the way I do. Um, you know, or for a church leader, it could be, you know, they give major contributions to the church, or they’re always available to serve and and yet. And that’s awesome. Except they say to you, well, you know, the program is going to fall apart if without my involvement. Which kind of holds you hostage to any behavior that they have. Because if you believe that things will fall apart, then you have to weigh out the cost of addressing their issues. Right? And so that is a big red flag. Another one I would say that I think we have to pay attention to is incongruity. When someone says one thing, but their actions demonstrate another thing. And it’s not just a mistake, but it’s a pattern of behavior that things just don’t line up. Another one is insensitivity. You know, I mean, there is a place for being sensitive to other people’s issues and making sure that, you know, we are we’re kind and that, you know, we’re compassionate toward other people. Ministry kind of demands that. And if you get to a place where you’re so averse to being sensitive to other people’s issues, that insensitivity will breed trust issues. Hmm.

Daniel Yang:
Lisa, um, I’d like to talk about church hurt and how church leaders can lead through, uh, vision and growth, while still keeping in mind that there are some that have experienced real church hurt. And then there are others that may not have experienced it, but they’re highly sensitive to it now because of podcasts and because of blogs and those kinds of things. Um, so how can you lead in this environment in a way where you’re not insensitive, but also you’re not overly paranoid?

Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah, that is such a good question. And honestly, I wish I had the end all be all answer for that. Um, because that’s a dynamic that I think it’s a tension we’re going to have to manage and not a problem to solve, because church hurt seems to be at an all time high. I read some statistics recently where one of the major groups of people leaving the church today are people are women in my age group, which is shocking because I would have told you that women in my age group are kind of the glue of the church, you know? Like, we’re the ones like bringing in the older generation and then also the younger generation because we have influences on both sides. But I think there’s a lot of hurt when the divorce rate is so high. Women who have gone through relational trauma, and maybe the church didn’t support them the way they thought that the church needed to support them. And maybe some of those expectations were unrealistic. Right. But maybe there’s some were realistic, and it was just a scenario where there wasn’t a pathway of complete support like what she expected. So I think there’s a whole lot of reasons. I want to I want to read you something from the book because, um, taking inspiration from C.S. Lewis and The Screwtape Letters, I think this will be something that will help pinpoint what the enemy, the part that the enemy plays in this. And I do believe that the enemy, you know, his great goal is division. And if he can isolate us, then you know, that’s where trouble can really happen. And so let me read you this, um, it’s it’s as if a demon is writing a letter to distract me.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Like, what’s the game plan to distract Lisa from being the woman she wants to be? You don’t need to worry about recruiting her to do bad things. Just keep poking at her unresolved hurt, and soon she’ll feel justified in doing and saying all kinds of things she wouldn’t normally do or say. Fill her social media feed that she looks at with images that make her feel intense feelings of how unfair her situation is. Feed her skepticism by surrounding her with others who don’t trust organizations like the one who hurt her. Make her too distracted to open up God’s Word so she’ll keep feeding on the lie that her bitterness protects her, and that feelings of animosity aren’t that big of a deal. Keep her blinded to the way she now walks around, feeling on edge as she gets more and more short fused, impatient and and untolerable with the daily mistakes of others. Give her a feeling of superiority that those issues are always someone else’s fault, you see. Unresolved hurt inside of us will always be multiplied outside of us if we don’t deal with it. So how do we deal with church hurt? I think we have to start with ourselves first because we can’t control the choices of another person. But one thing we don’t want to do is allow the hurt that’s happened to us, to change us in such a way that then we start unleashing that hurt on other people. And we can’t control them, but we absolutely can control us. And I think that’s where it has to start.

Ed Stetzer:
So good. And I hate that you’re so much better a writer than I am. But that’s another story for another day. Um, so the also, too, it’s worth mentioning in this conversation that we recognize that some of these hurt situations can can be bigger than a broken trust situation. Abuse is a category of its own and its category of evil. Um, and and again, you know, this this conversation even here, is not meant to replace. There might be a time to to address something that’s abusive with the authorities or more, but also to something that might be something to require a therapist and more, which you do mention yourself in the book that that’s that’s part of it. In our conversation here, you mentioned that. So all that being said, we’re still talking. We all can recognize that there are levels of this that are extreme and require a different response than the kind of response we’re talking about here. But, but, but I still think it’s important to talk about the kind of stuff we’re talking about here, because this is this is like every day. And again, I was excited to have you on.

Ed Stetzer:
I mean, because, you know, you’re you’re the lane you write in is, is probably different than the normal conversation you had, you know, pastor leader types that we have here. But I think the topic here is so important because even in the time we’re living, I mean, everything’s so divided. So many people have left churches mad and pastors feel betrayed and people feel betrayed and people feel betrayed by their pastor for not dealing with this or dealing with that. I mean, this, this the trust issues are just off the chart. And statistically we could look at those trust issues. I mean, again, it’s just off the charts. So in a distrusting time, I love the fact that you’re helping us think well through issues of trust. But in a time when we’re just skeptical and suspicious, do I need to, as a pastor or church leader, lead differently? In other words, you know, people were more more. Maybe we had trusted each other differently in the 90s. Do I lead differently because of the time, or is it just discernment needs to apply in all times, and if so, how would I do that?

Lysa TerKeurst:
Well, I think the Holy Spirit has given us such a gift when he allows us to see the fruits of the spirit of other people. So that should walk hand in hand with our discernment. You know, when we look at other people, the fruit that they demonstrate from their life love, joy, peace, patience, kindness that’s going to tell us so much more than their words ever will. But but let’s flip it on us. Because sometimes, you know, we’re hesitant to demonstrate love, peace, patience, joy with other people, especially if we have a history of other people burning us or hurting us. And so the temptation I see a lot is church leaders want to put a pretty big buffer between themselves as a teacher and a preacher, and then interacting with the people that are, you know, sitting in our congregation or following along and that we’re their leader. Um, I’m going to give just a quick little tidbit that has helped me so much because I relate to both sides of this. I am a leader, I have a staff of 70 people, and then a lot of people, you know, follow me online and read my books and people are down on what they’re not up on. And so people will fill in the gaps of narratives about me that aren’t true.

Lysa TerKeurst:
And it’s extremely hurtful. And my natural tendency is to want to isolate away rather than to press in. So a friend told me recently this statement and it has really helped me a lot. I need to make sure that my the first thoughts like I may not be able to control the first thoughts, or maybe even my first words as I process a situation or a relationship. But I should be very, very intentional about my second thought and my second word. And we don’t want our first words full of shock and bitterness to become our last words filled with hate and resentment. And so, you know, when we’re a leader and we get hurt, of course you’re going to have hard feelings. Don’t shame yourself for that. Like, that’s super natural because you’re human. But it’s that second thought. It’s that second word. It’s that second moment where we’re developing a narrative about people, or that person or that organization. That’s where we really need to to take a step back and ask for help if we need help, and then certainly getting into God’s Word. You know, I’ve found sometimes when I want to get into God’s Word the least is when I actually need to get into it the most.

Daniel Yang:
We’ve been talking to Lysa Terkeurst. Be sure to check out her latest book. I want to trust you, but I don’t. And you can learn more about Lisa at Lysa terkeurst.com. Thanks again for listening to the Stats of Church Leaders podcast. You can find more interviews, as well as other great content from ministry leaders at Church leaders.com/podcast. And again, if you found our conversation today helpful, I’d love for you to take a few moments. Leave us a review that will help other ministry leaders find us and benefit from our content. Thanks for listening. We’ll see you on the next episode.

Voice Over:
You’ve been listening to the Stetzer Church Leaders podcast for more great interviews as well as articles, videos, and free resources, visit our website at Church leaders.com. Thanks for listening.

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