Dave Ferguson on The Stetzer ChurchLeaders Podcast.mp3: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.
Voice Over:
Welcome to the Stetzer Church Leaders Podcast, conversations with today’s top ministry leaders to help you lead better every day. And now, here are your hosts, Ed Stetzer and Daniel Yang.
Daniel Yang:
Welcome to the Stetzer Church Leaders Podcast, where we’re helping Christian leaders navigate and lead through the cultural issues of our day. My name is Daniel Yang, national director of Churches of Welcome at World Relief. And today we’re talking to Dave Ferguson. Dave is the founding and lead pastor of Chicago’s Community Christian Church, the visionary for the international church planting movement, New Thing, and the president of Exponential Conference. He’s also an award winning author of several books, including Bless Five Everyday Ways to Love Your Neighbor and Change the World, which he co-authored with his brother John. Now let’s go to Ed Stetzer, editor in chief of Outreach Magazine and the dean of the Talbot School of Theology.
Ed Stetzer:
It’s making me smile when he was even doing that introduction. Because you’re a columnist for Outreach magazine. You know, I do some stuff now with exponential. Daniel is connected to both of us. This is a very these are a lot of friends here, a lot of good relationships you and I are releasing together this right now. Pastors plus project as well. You’re you’re going to be talking about how well outwardly focused church. But it’s right now pastors plus org and you’re going to be unpacking some of what we’re going to talk about today. So this is something that I’ve seen in person. I’ve told you the story when I got on the bus, the shuttle bus at the airport, I was I was going to get, I don’t know, I guess I was coming from because I lived in Chicago at the time and I was going to go pick up my car. You know, you take the shuttle bus over there and I always try to make a habit. I ask the Lord in my prayer time for the privilege of sharing the gospel in person, outside of a church setting once a week. So I’m always trying to start some conversations. So young couple, couple of kids get on the shuttle bus and we’re just, you know, they clearly came from a holidays. Oh, where did you guys come from? Et cetera. Et cetera. Started talking and I don’t remember how, but somehow, you know, I kind of nudged the conversation along to some, you know, to the bus ride.
Ed Stetzer:
Took a little time because of traffic. And I started talking to them about their, you know, spiritual background or any religious upbringing. And they said, well, we don’t really have any, but we’re kind of trying to figure all that out. And and then she says, yeah, I guess, you know, we’re trying to find find our way to God or something. Not quite the way you say it, but enough that my my sense spidey senses went off. And I said, well, you guys, where do you live? And they said, well, I live in Naperville and, and and I said, do you guys, like, have a church? I mean, I know I have some friends there. I said, yeah, there’s this there’s this place, they call it the yellow box. And sometimes we go, we’re trying to figure all this out. And I thought to myself, only when I’m witnessing do I run into somebody that Dave Ferguson and his church have already engaged and are, and I didn’t they weren’t believers, from what I could tell. But they’re on a journey. And this is so central to what you do. You’re reaching seekers long after the seeker church quit being a secret church. So what are some of the key qualities or characteristics do you think of a church that has a healthy approach to outreach? And I think yours does.
Dave Ferguson:
One of the key things is, I think for church staff and church, uh, pastors to really think of themselves as culture creators. And how do you create a culture of outreach? How do you create a culture of evangelism, which, um, I mean, is exactly the thing we, we addressed in that Pastor’s plus, um, video series. And if we’ve got time for it, I mean, I think there’s probably three really important components to creating a culture of outreach. I think at the core of it are values and of course, biblical values, which I think are, um, both the the passions of your heart, but also the convictions of your mind. So there’s scriptural based things that. Yeah, I mean, you believe Matthew 28, but you also kind of feel Matthew 28. I mean, you believe, you know, second Peter three nine but you also feel it. You want that to happen, every person to come to repentance. So I think there’s the base of the values. If you think in terms almost of like expanding concentric circles, then I think building on those values, you have to have a narrative. And when I say narrative, I think of two words, um, both language and story. There are certain language when you have a strong culture of any kind, there’s certain language that’s unique to us, and you’ve already kind of hinted at some of ours at community. Um, we talk about this all the time, helping people find their way back to God. That is our mission. That’s what we’re all about. When people make commitments to Christ and they’re baptized, and oftentimes it happens by someone in their small group that’s baptized, and they’ll talk about how I found my way back to God.
Ed Stetzer:
And so of course, we talked about this. I don’t like that phrase. You know, it’s not my favorite. Do you.
Dave Ferguson:
Love it? You know you love it.
Ed Stetzer:
I love the fact that when the NLT came out and translated Second Corinthians chapter five, verse 17, it was closer to your phrase than, than, than. And I forget the I’ll have to look up the exact number. But here’s the thing I when I was at your church, I want you to finish the three. But when I was at your church, I visited one day. Not I wasn’t preaching, I was just there. Um, and when I was there, I counted the number of times that somebody said, because, you know, I did enough where I like, asked people, you know, and I, I mean, they didn’t know who I was, but I pretended that I was, you know, a visitor for a while. And then I said, well, can you show me this? And and like they would say, and this is where we help kids find their way back to God, and this is where we I mean, I think it was 13 I was years ago, but I don’t remember for sure. So it is clearly a central cultural value. So keep, keep going. But I wanted to point out that I’ve seen this in action.
Dave Ferguson:
And what I think what you do with language too, is with language. You’re actually able to embed certain biblical values in it in a contemporary sense, and that’s what we try. We’ve really tried to do. And actually you also embed this kind of goes to the narrative piece. You embed stories in it. So when I say, hey, we’re all about helping people find their way back to God, it sparks for everybody. Oh, that was my story or that was my neighbor’s story. That was my friend’s story. And so you want these values, but then you also want the narrative, which is language and story. I think storytelling is very important. So like when we baptize somebody, always we will have them write out their story and we’ll read their story. And after they get baptized, I mean, it’s just it’s like a giant party. People are celebrating. And Oftentimes too. I mean, we’ll see people, they just they’ll have us give them a standing ovation after they get baptized, which, um, I think Kim Hammond was the guy who first told me. He says you can tell what a culture values by what gets spontaneous applause.
Dave Ferguson:
Um, so you want that those those values and then the then the narrative, which is language and story. But then there’s the behaviors on top of it. And I think you have to have all three of those. And those behaviors are something. And I would say to lead pastors, maybe you’re not a gifted evangelist by, you know, by God’s gifting, but there are certain behaviors which maybe we’ll have time to talk about the blessed practices that that we teach that, that every one of us can do. And in some ways, even by not always being successful, but by telling the stories and reinforcing the values of how you’re trying to use those behaviors, you begin to create this culture of outreach, this culture of evangelism. And I think that’s probably the most important thing you can do, because, again, and I could go on and on on this, but the culture piece, that’s something that works 24 over seven, it works non-stop. And that’s that’s really what you want in your large or small church. Yeah.
Ed Stetzer:
And we see that when churches get Ahold of this and again, it may feel different than, you know, your church is a contemporary church, by the way, the verse in the NLT. Second Corinthians 520 says, we speak for Christ when we plead, come back to God. So the the I mean, that fits your culture, kind of the context where you are sometimes more traditional churches might do things differently, but can still have a deeply rooted culture of evangelism. Anyway, I’m going to let I’m gonna let Daniel ask some questions as well. We are going to get to the best practices, because I want to tell you something about a study that we’ve done that I haven’t told you about. I’m gonna tell you right in the middle of our podcast. But, Daniel, over to you.
Dave Ferguson:
Do I get to have. Do I get to have a question?
Ed Stetzer:
No, no, this is not this is not an interview show.
Dave Ferguson:
This is us, the Stetzer podcast when Daniel is co-hosting.
Ed Stetzer:
That’s it’s fair. It’s fair. It’s very, very harsh. Daniel, what do you want to say?
Daniel Yang:
I said, I’ve been asking that question for about four years now.
Ed Stetzer:
So back when we were in the studio together, you saw I live in California now. He lives in Chicago. You both live in Chicagoland. We used to be a thing behind us, and Daniel wanted to put a little sticker that said Stetzer and Yang Church Leaders Podcast. Yes.
Daniel Yang:
I’m working there. But you know, Dave, I mean, uh, I’ve been able to preach there at the yellow box. You mentioned the yellow box earlier.
Ed Stetzer:
I mean, I’ve never preached at the yellow box, but go ahead.
Daniel Yang:
There you go.
Ed Stetzer:
To be fair, they did ask once I couldn’t come.
Daniel Yang:
But even naming, even naming your main campus the yellow box. Now, if people were to visit, it literally looks like a yellow box from the outside. But even that ugly look. Well, lowering the barriers for those who don’t typically attend church. I mean, that’s sort of embedded in the way that you all think. And so can you talk about like the difference between, like, outreach as an event, as a program versus like really trying to instill that into the people and instill that into your staff? Yeah.
Dave Ferguson:
I mean, um, I’m not I’m not opposed to outreach as an event, but I think that’s probably something that larger churches might have more success at because they have they’re able to have the kind of staff and have the kind of things that can pull off events. But I think as a process or as a relationship, what was the word you used? Event versus.
Daniel Yang:
Yeah. I mean, what the difference between like, your staff and your people, like embodying the culture of outreach versus just kind of a one time event?
Dave Ferguson:
Yeah, I think and I think seeing it as an event or I seen it as a relationship or as a process, I think that’s something that everybody can engage in. And I think in some ways, when you begin to make that shift and go, okay, it’s not just something we do on Sundays, it’s not just something we do, you know, in the fall and in the first of the year. It’s not just something we do for a week out of the year, but it is something we can do every day. I think you’re able to actually equip, equip your people. Um, and so for us, I mean, with particularly with the best practices, but I’d also well, we can talk about Alpha too, because I’m a big Alpha fan. I think both of those things are not so much event oriented as they are really kind of more relationship and more process oriented, which I think is you’re able to engage the whole church and equip the whole church to be involved in outreach and evangelism, where events is. Maybe it’s only highlighting a few gifts, and you’re kind of almost like you’re bringing everybody else to expose them to that.
Ed Stetzer:
Yeah, it seems that that it’s fair to say that you work hard to set a broad table for people to be engaged in outreach. So Alpha is going to be led by lay leaders, by and large, your blessed practices. Now here’s the thing. We’re doing this research project that we haven’t released yet. And and we might release it. We might not release it because it’s one of those projects where we’re informing something and we’re going to write about it. So it might be a while, but I will tell you, the researchers said to me recently, so do you know how many people have sort of mentioned the blessed practices? We’re actually surveying high impact churches who are reaching curious and spiritually open people. And one of the common things we hear them talking about is the blessed practices. So I think it’s and and I know you have an app too, but tell us. I mean it’s an acronym. So so go go through the acronym. So and I want to set it up for you. So culturally again when I came to visit the Community Christian Church, it wasn’t just I heard it from Dave up front.
Ed Stetzer:
I think John was preaching that week and I did hear it from them, but I heard it from like the parking lot. I heard it from the people who showed me around the childcare. I heard it from the people. All those people were saying, we’re helping people find their way back to God. They got the common mission and it was in the water. Um, but then I’m of the view that you need to give people some handhold, something they can do. You know, I, you know, if you ever carried a box when we were kids, boxes didn’t have handholds in them. And then somebody like five years ago said, let’s put handholds in boxes. It was like the biggest scientific breakthrough in history. Well, I think that things like the best practices or things like Alpha or things like events, give people handholds so they can hold on to this thing called evangelism and do it. So go through and explain the acronym of the Blessed Practice. And as he does, just keep in mind that this is something that we’ve seen a significantly impactful role in churches that are reaching curiously open skeptics and seekers.
Dave Ferguson:
Awesome. Yeah. I mean, in short, as I introduced the blessed practices, we talk about these as five everyday ways you can love your neighbor. And keep in mind too, that we’re kind of saying, you know what? It’s God’s job to judge people. It’s the Holy Spirit’s job to convict people. It’s your job to love your neighbor. And so how do we actually do that? Because I actually think people show up at our churches going, like, I want to do this. I do want to follow Jesus. I do want to love. Now just tell me how. Give me some practical hows. And I think what these five practices do really are kind of like, yeah, here’s how you can actually do it. So we put it in a way like you said. So there’s handles so they can actually grab Ahold of this and do it every day. The B stands for begin with prayer. And so in your neighborhood, like I did this morning, I have eight different folks in my neighborhood that I pray for specifically by name. So you begin by prayer. That’s how the mission begins. Then the L stands for listen. And I think these intentionally kind of they also kind of build on each other in a, in kind of a process. Um, we’re in a season where I’m, I mean, you have to wait in line to get to a counselor. And I think people are longing just to be listened to.
Dave Ferguson:
And in fact, one of the most loving acts I think you can do for someone is to listen to them. And quite frankly, I think Christians, um, are often more known for our talking than our listening. And I think if we would lead by listening and letting other people tell their story, that’s huge, huge, huge win. So let’s begin with prayer. L stands for listen. The E stands for eat. My experience is that if you want to move an acquaintance to a friendship, have a shared meal, even a cup of coffee. Even a dessert. That, that. That’s what moves an acquaintance to a friendship. And again, you see all these in the life of Jesus too. First thing he did when he started his ministry began with prayer. He listens a lot more than he. He asks a lot more questions than he does anything else. E you see him eating with, like, Zacchaeus and other people when he really wants to get to know folks. The first s then of the five practices then is serve. Because when you begin with prayer, you listen and eat with someone. They will tell you how to love them. Um, I think I can say this, uh, one of the eight people on my list is my neighbor across the street, Bill. Bill’s a great guy. Funny guy. I enjoy Bill immensely. Um, unfortunately, in the last year, Bill found out he had cancer.
Ed Stetzer:
The Setzer Church Leaders Podcast is part of the Church Leaders Podcast Network, which is dedicated to resourcing church leaders in order to help them face the complexities of ministry. Today, the Church Leaders Podcast Network supports pastors and ministry leaders by challenging assumptions, by providing insights and offering practical advice and solutions and steps that will help church leaders navigate the variety of cultures and contexts that we’re serving in. Learn more at Church leaders.com/podcast network.
Dave Ferguson:
And so I mean, I’ve been texting with him back and forth, and I told him I was praying for him. And of course he’s he’s delighted to have someone pray for him. Um, just this morning, um, he texted me back and said, hey, I got the scans back. I’m cancer free. And and it was, you know, I got to say, hey, I’m so excited. Congrats. And I’m also thanking God for answered prayer. And he’s like, yes, brother. Um, but one of the ways I got to serve him, you know, as small as it might feel at some in some ways, I mean, we were going through cancer. I was able to pray for him consistently. And I think I do think that meant a lot to him. And then the last s is story. And so once you get to those things and you’ve loved somebody, you’ve eaten with them, you listen to them, you prayed for them, then you get a chance to share your story of how Jesus has changed your life. And again, proclamation is important. But we would say maybe it doesn’t have to be first. Maybe it doesn’t have to be first. And what I’ve found is these are five everyday ways that anybody can love their neighbor. And one of the things I like about it, too, is you’re not having to add something else to your schedule. It’s like how you live your life. It’s how you do life. So that’s there they are pretty quickly. That’s good.
Ed Stetzer:
It’s a little disappointing that the first letter B isn’t something that I know.
Dave Ferguson:
That’s such a bummer. It’s so close.
Ed Stetzer:
It’s such a kind of begin with prayer. Prayer or something. I don’t even know. But let’s begin with prayer. Listen. Eat, serve story. Exactly. And again, I want people to hear that. I think that this is having a lot of impact on a lot of churches. Okay. So I want to come back to the beginning of the culture thing. I think some people are saying right now, well, Dave, you’re just kind of a naturally, you know, out, outwardly focused guy. You’re just kind of think that way. And again, I think there’s some fairness to that. I mean, that’s that’s one of the reasons we asked you to talk about seven traits of an outwardly looking church right now, pastors plus. And so what my question for you is you’ve helped hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of churches to be more outwardly looking, uh, be and they don’t have to be like you in personality. So what most of our, the vast majority of our audience are pastors and church leaders. How do they start? And I would just start at the very beginning. How do they start raising up that culture? So then they can say, do the blessed practices. Let’s start a, you know, Christianity explorer group or an alpha group, you know, but if you don’t have the culture there, it doesn’t get there. So how do we get the culture there?
Dave Ferguson:
Um, I won’t give all the because we go through seven steps in the pastor’s plus and and there and I put it in those steps so we can understand it. We can actually live them out. But one of the key things early on, one of the key things early on, and again, whether you’re a gifted evangelist or not, is for you just to do it yourself. Right? And again, if you think about.
Ed Stetzer:
What the old preacher would say.
Dave Ferguson:
There you go. Thank you. Um, and again, think about these five practices. I mean, those are things any of us can do as believers, as followers, if any of us can do that. And so you have to do it. And then I would encourage you also then second after that is to get your key leaders, your maybe your staff. What I would say is maybe the top, you know, 15, 16, 17% of your people get them doing it. And once you get them doing it, then you’re ready to teach it. That’s kind of the third, third thing I’d say. Then you teach it and after you teach it, then you have to figure out ways how do we reinforce this? And we talk about that in the Pastor’s Plus over and over and over again. But not surprising, seeing yourself as a culture creator, whether you’re naturally gifted or not, that you value it enough and that you’re talking about it enough and you’re trying to do it enough, it’ll actually it’ll it’ll take root in your church. And I think you’ll see your church become a much more outreach oriented church.
Daniel Yang:
Dave, I’ve got a community story, too. My wife and I, we were at an Italian restaurant there in Naperville, where your main campus is at, and our server was wearing a bless bracelet. And I think I texted you and John that you all were doing a great job, you know, mobilizing your members. At least it was top of mind. And they would they would. And he was he was a fantastic server. And we we tipped him. Well, just to let you know, but, um, but, you know, that was a bracelet. It’s a constant reminder. What what led to the creation of the app? What is the app? What how does it help and how did it come about?
Dave Ferguson:
Well, the truth is, the creation of the app wasn’t even wasn’t even our idea. Um, it’s our friends at Glu. Um, they they had the Bless Every home app which had been around for a while, but I think they weren’t satisfied with some of the practices that were a part of that. And so then they came to John and I and said, hey, could we embed and use those practices in this and let’s start calling it the Bless app. And so in this well, it’s been less than a year now. We actually made that shift. So if you go to I think it’s the bless app.com.
Ed Stetzer:
The bless app.com. Yep. Okay.
Dave Ferguson:
If you do that I mean you can take a look at it there. And, um, one of the things that’s kind of cool about it is like, I was on it this morning because that’s part of my routine. They will show you, here’s your 40 neighbors where they live and their names. And then when you select which ones, then you can actually begin to do any of those five practices. And it allows you to actually have a personal kind of scorecard of sorts where, you know, like for I know exactly like I mentioned, Bill, I know how many times I’ve prayed for Bill, I know how many times I listened for Bill. I also know I put a little there’s a little place in there to where I said, because this week I happen to see him out by the mailbox went over, how are you doing? He said, well, I’m getting the scans back. So I said, hey, do you care if I pray for you right now? And he’s like, sure. And so then I just put a little note. There’s a place for notes in the app to like, hey, prayed for Bill asking God to for a clean scan. Um, so it’s at an individual level. It’s free. It’s just a great piece of technology that I think accelerates. Um, you’re using those five practices?
Ed Stetzer:
Yes. I had my little slip of paper in the back of my Bible. So this is like, you know, takes it to the next level. The kind of thing I used to when I, when I would preach and teach, I would say, make a map of your neighborhood and map your neighbors, or make a list of people who are not in your neighborhood. And then in doing so, you can kind of walk that journey with those people. So I love that and I think that’s so, so helpful. Okay. So, um, a lot of our audience are smaller churches, you know, I guess, I mean, you know, most most churches are small churches. So what does it look like? You know, so, so, you know, starting in Alpha might be of course, that might even be a big thing. So what are some things I guess that could be something you do immediately. What are some things you would suggest for smaller and mid-sized churches to do?
Dave Ferguson:
I mean, you kind of said, if I had, you know, five minutes to sit down with a pastor and he’s like, hey, give me two takeaways that can make a big difference. I would I would say, number one, I’d say start using you, start doing the blessed practices and then start teaching them. And using the bless app is a great tool for your church. And I can explain how that is a tool for the church if you want. But then secondly, I would I would tell them and do Alpha because it’s funny. I mean, a lot of the same practices that we that that we have within bless, you know, prayer, listen, eat, serve. I mean are the same things that make Alpha really work because you’re showing up in this community of folks who said, no, there’s you can ask any questions you want. There’s a shared meal. Um, so I think those two things.
Ed Stetzer:
Those two things would look like, you know, community Christians like, so central to Alpha. If Alpha is not your thing, we’re not mad at you. There’s, um, Christianity explored. There’s there’s all kinds of resources like that. The point is, it’s something that your people in your church can do, that you have a conversation, you follow some of those bless practices as well. Those all sort of line up accordingly to just take in an opportunity. Okay. So, um, when you.
Ed Stetzer:
When.
Ed Stetzer:
You think about ways churches do outreach. Because again, we’re trying to I think, you know, I think evangelism has fallen on hard times. And I think in, in part it’s fallen on hard times because the ways that we do evangelism have shifted the way people in the culture receive evangelism. And so now when I hear people talk about evangelism, I most commonly hear them joke about how we used to do it. Well, you know, we used to do so and so. Well, first of all, I’m for all the ways we can do evangelism, but I’m also for celebrating ways that are actually having some impact, like what we’re talking about with les or other things like that. So what are some misconceptions that you think that you see church leaders sort of ending up going down, that dead end? Maybe they have to their approach on outreach. Um, you know, what what what are those misconceptions that those pastors have that you can help persuade them? In our short conversation today, what do you think?
Dave Ferguson:
I think well-meaning church leaders, um, we teach on it, and then we wonder why nothing changes. And if I could go back to the values narrative behavior when we just teach on it and we’re not actually doing it ourselves, or even just attempting like the best practices, what we’re actually implicitly doing is we’re going, oh, I only have to sit here and listen to this person talk about it, because I know this person doesn’t even do it. And so if we do both those things, yes, hold the values, but also, yes, keep teaching. You’re doing a great job. Keep teaching. But just start doing these and you don’t have to be awesome at it. You just have to be trying like the rest of us. Then you can create the culture. So I think the misconception, oh, if I just teach on it, that’s going to change. My experience is that that’s not enough. There takes a certain level of leadership and going like, hey, I’m in this with you. I’m in this struggle with you. And you know, I’m going to do my best to use these five everyday ways to love my neighbor. So I think that’s a misconception. I think on the church side, I think a lot of I think a lot of, I think a lot of folks are motivated. They do want to love their neighbor, but they don’t have the answer to how. And that’s again to being redundant. I that’s why I love these five practices. It’s like, oh, here is how you can you can love your neighbor. And and there are some folks that kind of think, well, that’s the pastor’s job. And we have to debunk that myth. It’s not the pastor’s job. You know.
Daniel Yang:
Dave, I mean, inevitably, Sunday gatherings are still a very great opportunity for people to hear the gospel. And, you know, I would say, by and large, most evangelistic pastors see, uh, Sunday morning as one of the big opportunities. So as you’re teaching team, as you’re crafting messages, you’re thinking about language. You’re thinking about how the nonbeliever might listen. What are some of the things that you’re processing as a teacher and as a teaching team when you’re crafting those messages?
Dave Ferguson:
Oh, I mean, I mean, you look, you are looking to be careful about the kind of language that you use. Um, because there is there is, there’s there’s a lot of insider language. And to be honest, I feel like the longer I’m a pastor, the more susceptible I am to that. And if you can bring new people to the table, even new believers to the table. I just came from a teaching team meeting with Chris and and Tammy this this morning, and there was one of the stories that Chris told. I mean, I think Tammy kind of called it out and said, hey, I’m not sure that people are going to really understand. They’re going to understand what you’re talking about there. And she’s seeing it through the grid of like, okay, people who are showing up for the very first time, along with maybe a friend. So you definitely you definitely have to do that. And I think, again, if you can give people a simple steps for how to find their way into our language, to find their way back to God, I think that’s also very helpful because at this point, people aren’t showing up at church just because they’ve got nothing to do on Sunday morning. There’s there’s probably a search going on. And if you can give them clear next steps, that’s that’s a huge, huge help to them as well.
Ed Stetzer:
Yeah. So what would be when you kind of draw people and you say to them, let’s, let’s begin this journey. What would be some of those next steps? Do you ultimately want them to trust Christ and receive him as Lord and Savior and be baptized and but but what? What more than that to lead up to that?
Dave Ferguson:
Uh, for us, a lot of times, I mean, we almost always encourage people. The next step is to join a small group. And I know it seems like a big step, but we have a high percentage of our people in small groups. And for us, once they get into a group, that’s the place where almost always people find their way back to God in the context of that small group. Because like when someone gets baptized and that’ll often happen in one of our worship services, it’s usually somebody from their small group or like Alpha. And I would consider that also a different form of small group. Um, that has led them to faith. And, and we will say, hey, who would you like to have baptized you? And they’ll pick someone from their group. Uh, so for us, that’s that. That is the primary next step.
Daniel Yang:
Dave, this has been a helpful conversation and you mentor a lot of church planters and pastors as we get ready to wrap up here, if you’re talking to, you know, new church planter, somebody who’s starting a new church, or maybe somebody who’s a young leader that’s stepping into leading a church, how can you encourage them towards the future, especially around keeping outreach and evangelism at the forefront? How would you encourage them?
Dave Ferguson:
I feel like I’m saying the same things over and over again. Daniel. Um, I mean, I.
Ed Stetzer:
Think keep in mind, when I came to your church that you said the same thing over and again 13 times. So that’s not maybe.
Dave Ferguson:
Maybe I only know a couple of things, so maybe that’s why. Um, but I.
Ed Stetzer:
Do think the redundancy and the repetition is actually helpful because, Dave, I’m just of the view that we’re seeing because people have lost confidence in their evangelism methods. They therefore have said, I’m not going to do evangelism. And what I would say is there are other ways, relational ways, connected ways. And again, let me be clear. I think you would agree with me. I’m for everybody to evangelism in all different kinds of ways. When I see that person in the London corner preaching, I’m that that person. I mean, if they’re preaching the gospel, they’re on my team. So I don’t like I’m I’m with you. But part of why we had you on is that we see a significant number of people coming to faith in Christ. We see the practices you’re putting forth impacting other churches. So your kind of for us, an example of some of a church that has a high outreach, you know, capacity and activity. And again, that’s even why, you know, right now we asked you to do the pastors plus thing and we’ll and we’ll put that to you. By the way, it’s right now pastors plus org and people can get there. And then the course will come out. A lot of people already have right now media, so they’ll be familiar with it. So so I guess I don’t need you to feel like there’s some brilliant insight that you that we’re kind of expecting you to have. I just, just tell us how you would encourage pastors and church leaders to do what you already doing naturally, but maybe it’s not natural for them. And it can be redundant. It can be repetitive, but just make it brilliant and insightful.
Dave Ferguson:
Okay, there we go. So I. Okay, here’s what I would tell them. I would say pick eight of your neighbors. And when I say neighbors it could be somebody where you live. It could be somebody where you play. If I wasn’t talking to a pastor, I’d say it’s somewhere where you where you work. But I’d say pick eight of them. And what I want you to do is I want you to begin praying for them every day. You start praying for them every day. And for years they would be eight names I’d write down in my journal and more recently in the last year. Now it’s those eight names in my app. Um, and then as God gives you opportunity and here’s what happens, you grow a sensitivity towards those people. Like when my neighbors come out, it’s like after you’ve been praying for them, especially in Chicago, like you’ve been praying. It’s kind of what you’ve been praying for him all winter, and you haven’t seen him all winter. And all of a sudden the spring. You see, I have to kind of try not to attack them. Um, but you do you. Then you’re going like, oh, this is my chance to have a conversation, to listen to them, you know? And then and I would say, yeah.
Dave Ferguson:
And figure out ways, how can you actually be hospitable. You know, and it might be a trip to Starbucks or it might be a, you know, a cookout in the backyard to eat together and then serve them as you discover what’s going on in their life. And then eventually just ask God for an opportunity to share your story. I would also say, and and as you talk about it, and again, I think you’ve kind of on to something. I think evangelism has kind of become a bad word, and it shouldn’t be. It absolutely shouldn’t be a bad word. Um, but I have emphasized more and more, this is how you love your neighbor. You just keep loving your neighbor in these five ways. And what we find is they’ll find their way back to God. So I would encourage a young pastor, particularly a young church planter. Yeah. Begin with you. And as you start doing it, then we’re going to figure out how do we actually spread and equip other people to do the same?
Ed Stetzer:
Yes, and they will. Then, because of your Armenian heritage, God’s working prevalently in their heart, giving them the, the, the work, the nudge, the draw to him, so that then, because of Prevenient grace, they can enter into. I’m just theologizing some of what you said, but I know.
Dave Ferguson:
This is why we love you. And this is this is your niche.
Ed Stetzer:
Appreciate you, brother, Daniel explained.
Daniel Yang:
Like a good Calvinist. We’ve been talking to Dave Ferguson. Be sure to check out the blessed app at the blessed app.com and his new course coming out at right Now Pastors plus.org. You can learn more about Dave at Dave ferguson.org. Thanks again for listening to the Church Leaders podcast. You can find more interviews as well as other great content from ministry leaders at Church leaders.com/podcast. And again, if you found the conversation today helpful, I’d love for you to take a few moments to leave us a review that help other ministry leaders find us and benefit from our content. Thanks for listening. We’ll see you in the next episode.
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You’ve been listening to the Stetzer Church Leaders podcast for more great interviews as well as articles, videos, and free resources, visit our website at Church leaders.com. Thanks for listening.
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