J.D. Greear on The Stetzer ChurchLeaders Podcast.mp3: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.
Voice Over:
Welcome to the Stetzer Church Leaders Podcast, conversations with today’s top ministry leaders to help you lead better every day. And now, here are your hosts, Ed Stetzer and Daniel Yang.
Daniel Yang:
Welcome to the Stetzer Church Leaders Podcast, where we’re helping Christian leaders navigate and lead through the cultural issues of our day. My name is Daniel Yang, national director of Churches of Welcome at World Relief. And today we’re talking with doctor J.D. Greer. J.d. is the pastor of the Summit Church in Raleigh, Durham, North Carolina, and under his leadership, the summit has grown from a church of 300 to a multi-campus church of more than 12,000. J.d. is the author of several books, including Just Ask 12 truths and a Lie and Essential Christianity, and Today we’re talking to him about how to navigate the election year. But first, let’s go to Ed Stetzer, editor in chief of Outreach magazine and the dean of the Talbot School of Theology.
Ed Stetzer:
Okay, J.D., so we we I did this series for part of your series that people can find. And if they go to the podcast notes, it’s all linked to there. And you’ve been talking about how to navigate political season at your church, but also maybe helping pastors to do that. Our audience, of course, is pastors and church leaders. I’m kind of of the view that 2024 is probably going to be a more divided time than maybe 2020 and and maybe 2016, but the difference is, in some ways, pastors have probably learned some lessons from the past two cycles as well. So tell me, what lessons can we apply from 2016 and 2020 as pastors and leaders are trying to navigate this time right now?
J.D. Greear:
Yeah, I, I’m actually not sure my, um, my not.
Ed Stetzer:
As positive about.
J.D. Greear:
That. Yeah. Well, just as you watch 2024 unfold, sometimes I think it feels like wet ammunition that’s already been spent. And there’s some fault lines that got revealed. And and in a lot of ways it was destructive. But in a lot of ways there was actually some redemption that came out of it, as I think there were certain people that learned to be in conversations. There were times that people spoke up and and probably should have been not so quick to speak up. And then there are also times that we didn’t speak up and we should. And so I would like to think there’s some maturity that has come through it. I certainly feel like that on our team. I’m not personally as anxious going into this one when it comes to, you know, I always feel like 2020 was a little bit of a hurricane that revealed, you know, the the, the quality of the ship is not tested when it’s sitting quietly in the harbor. It’s when it goes to the hurricane and it revealed a lot of leaks. And so I think there’s a lot that we we matured in. And but I do think, yeah, it’s, you know, especially as we just watch things shape up now with, with Kamala. Um, you know, with Candidate Harris, I guess, and, and with Donald Trump. Yeah. There’s there’s been, you know, explosive rhetoric is not going to be in short, in short demand. And and we’re about to undergo a media assault that is going to be built on on sensationalizing it and and highlighting these divisions. I mean, we lament the divisions, but then we have whole industries that are focused on on fostering them.
Ed Stetzer:
So yeah, I think I think for a lot of people, again, Ed’s thesis is that a lot of the sorting I wrote about the great sort that in Outreach Magazine, my editor’s column there that that people in 2020 kind of maybe, maybe in 2022 they, they sort of sorted themselves out ideologically already. So you probably had people at the Summit Church to the right of you who left unhappy, maybe to the left of you who left unhappy. Certainly we’ve seen that in churches in California. And now in almost every major city, there’s kind of a church that’s that’s kind of, you know, very much aligned. We’re engaged in the culture war. We’re we’re we’re much more political. We’re going to name sometimes names of candidates from pulpits and things of that sort. And then there’s others maybe on the other side who. Well, that could be right or left. But then for a lot of pastors in the evangelical space, they’re kind of unsure what to speak up on and what not to speak up on. And you sort of already mentioned that, that, you know, maybe some people spoke up too much or not enough. So what do you think? What are some advice you’d give for 2024 for pastors and church leaders.
J.D. Greear:
Yeah. So yeah, there’s an old Scottish proverb that says for every one mile of road, there’s two miles of ditch. Um, and, you know, I think to be a little bit simplistic, um, in 2020 in particular, there were people that were so trying to depoliticise the gospel, trying to understand things from a different perspective that, you know, you look at it and you say, hey, when it comes to issues of righteousness, whether we’re talking about the the harm that the gender chaos is causing to our society, or whether we’re talking about the pro-choice thing that, you know, in trying to understand things from a different agenda or a different perspective, I have to speak out on issues of public righteousness. If that was one ditch, then the other ditch is when you you tend to baptize everything and begin to to say like, well, because of my commitment to pro-life, because of my commitment to gender, then all of a sudden or gender clarity that comes with it, all these assumptions about the marginal tax rate and the role of the government and, you know, welfare and what size, you know, what our immigration policy should be and all those kinds of things. Um, you know, I laid out for our church recently and I did it in May, uh, intentionally, because of course.
Ed Stetzer:
People are going to be listening to this in August, so they didn’t have the chance to. But tell us what it laid out in May, and then we’ll talk about what they should lay out if they didn’t.
J.D. Greear:
Well, basically I just laid out, you know, uh, this is what it means to approach the election from a gospel centered perspective. I did it in May because I, you know, at the time when everybody’s all they’re thinking about in October is, is this I wanted to, you know, say, hey, we’ve got this. We’ve been through it. It’s there as a resource, but it’s not what you hear every time you come into church. And what I told you is, I said, I’m going to give you I’m going to give you. I think it was six different pieces of counsel that I hoped were timely. And I said a couple of them apply to more to people that lean right. Um, and a couple of them apply to people who lean left and a couple of them to sort of apply to everybody. You know what I said to those who tend to lean right is, you know, we cannot equivocate about character and we can’t, you know, say, well, because I think this is better overall for the country and because of the importance of the pro-life issue, which I agree with and because of the harm of of gender chaos, you know, I’m just going to downplay, um, the corruption or, uh, you know, references to sexual assault or things that I hear, you know, my candidate on the right saying, you know, Proverbs 14 says that righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people.
J.D. Greear:
And when you have that kind of character problems in the highest office, that’s that’s a problem. We can’t equivocate about that. And the other thing I said to them is, if you don’t like the other side’s solution on poverty relief or the promotion of equality, then you got to put forward your own. One thing that is clear is that the Bible commands us to care about and be engaged in poverty. If you’re one of those people who tends to say, you know, the greatest argument against progressive politics is progressive, the state of progressive cities, or you can lay out a really biblically informed way, you know, a case for smaller government then then great. But but but but our advocacy of that should not merely be. Why buy one side? Solutions don’t work when we have nothing in the positive on ours of here is what I’m saying, and here is what we’re doing to to change poverty. Um, again, there’s a lot more that can be said on these, but those are just, you know, those are things that I would say to those that lean right. Um, to those that lean left. Um, I told them, you got to call out expressively evil things in your party’s platform, that if you’re one of those people, like some of my British evangelical friends, that tend to have a more big government perspective on things than a lot of American Christians do, and you think that, you know, government, um, uh, government activity and regulation and, and, and poverty relief, you think that that’s just, you know, a better way to go? Um, you know, then then you’ve got to if you’re an American in that category, the Democratic platform explicitly endorses both pro-choice and pro, you know, gender, LGBT kind of stuff.
J.D. Greear:
And and you can’t be quiet on those things simply because you think that the overall picture of what Democrats want to do for the economy is better. You have to call it, because when we don’t call out expressively evil things, then our silence becomes complicity in those things. Um, the second thing I told them, um, so our fourth thing was you got to be wise to the implications of ideological constructs. And, you know, in 2020, we were all still, you know, kind of coming to terms of what things like critical theory was and what, you know, kind of woke things were. And and it was one of those things that, that a lot of people were attracted to some of the questions and problems that these ideological constructs raised. But you can’t be ignorant to the the things that that those ideas bring in, because a lot of times the solutions end up being as bad of, if not worse than, the problems they were trying to solve. I compared it with just like a camel, you know, you put the nose in and you’re like, oh, this is great.
J.D. Greear:
But then Campbell brings with it the rest of the body. And and it creates a situation you want to be in. So those are the two that I gave to those that kind of lean left to those, you know, what I say to everybody is, is we just can’t equate secondary strategies with biblical imperatives. Um, there are things that the Bible says we have to agree on. Um, I’ve mentioned a bunch of them already in this. Um, we may not always agree on the solution or the candidates to, to best accomplish those. And so while I want to be clear about what the Bible teaches, I also want to give a little liberty when it comes to the application of Christian wisdom. I always refer to it as the difference between a dotted line and a straight line. There’s a dotted line between what the Bible says and a policy that I advocate for the policy, if it’s at best a dotted line, meaning I think it’s the best application of this biblical principle, then I try to, you know, I try to be a little I may have my opinions, but I don’t want to equate those with the platform of the church and, and put the authority of the Bible behind it, um, the marginal tax rate, um, what we ought to do when it comes to certain educational policies or foreign policy or immigration.
J.D. Greear:
The Bible never says, you know, says care about the immigrant. But it doesn’t say, and that means you would let in this many and this would be the enculturation process. So don’t baptize secondary strategies or treat those like biblical imperatives. And then the last one is just we can never morally equivocate or excuse, um, when we, you know, if politics is always a little bit of a, you know, it’s always a little bit of a lesser of two evils, a little bit of a calculus. Um, I get that, and there’s certain compromises and voting for one side or the other, but you just can’t equivocate or excuse, um, or downplay the faults in one side because you want them to win. And so I think we ought to be really clear about what the Bible’s clear on. Uh, you know, I, um, and with the, with, with the intensity that the Bible talks about them, that sin destroys a nation and the sin of pro-choice and the sin of gender chaos. They destroy the sin of bad character and the sin of greed and corruption. These things destroy. And we got to be clear about that, even while maintaining a little bit of restraint when it comes to making the dotted lines. Biblical imperatives that put dividing lines in the church where really there shouldn’t be.
Ed Stetzer:
Okay, so I mean, there are some practical questions that flow out of this. For example, you’re in saying that I agree with you that we can speak and we should speak up to issues that maybe offend people who agree with us and offend people who disagree with us. The challenge is if you’re a pastor and church leader and let’s say, for example, as I have, I can’t remember. I think this was in in USA today, I wrote about the Equality Act, and I called it the greatest threat to religious liberty in this generation. And I can.
J.D. Greear:
And I agreed with you.
Ed Stetzer:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I can speak up that, you know, Vice President Harris is, is is further to the left on these issues than, than President Biden was and has just modeled that over and over again. And so when I say that, then people who maybe, you know, maybe they catch you say one thing. Well, you didn’t say something else about the other party and they like, okay, that means I should. You’re saying that I should vote for President Trump. And then when I point out that, you know, President Trump has just just removed the pro-life plank out of the Republican Party platform, which it’s worth remembering that just a few years ago, people were yelling at other Christians for not supporting the president because the pro-life language was in the platform. You should vote for the platform. And now it’s not there. So but you point that out and then people are like, well, you’re saying to vote for Vice President Harris. So part of the challenge is you’re making the assumption that people will listen to you enough so that when you say this at one point and you say something else at another point, that there’s actually going to be a fair hearing rather than getting caught up. So how do you as a pastor. Because because again, you know, I have a body of work people can Google and say, what did Ed Stetzer say on the Equality Act and they can find it. What did Stetzer say on on on pro-life issues? I have a body of work, but most pastors don’t. So if they say one thing in one sermon, then that starts a whole conversation in the congregation. So what? How then shall we speak? How then shall we lead from the pulpit? Well, yeah, but.
J.D. Greear:
Even though you’ve got a body of work and I would say I do too, after being here for 20 years, people just don’t they don’t they don’t go access it even they.
Ed Stetzer:
Don’t even look at that. They just hear it on Twitter or whatever. Yeah.
J.D. Greear:
Yeah. And a lot I mean, it’s it’s I think it’s slanderous because I’m like, I mean, literally half a second of a Google search and you would find, you know, a lot of things. Um, it’s just the world we live in. And it’s a very difficult world. Twitter or X is not good for these kinds of substantive things, and neither are soundbites. You know, what that means for me as a pastor is I just have to be aware that things are going to be taken out of context, but I shouldn’t make it easy for them to be. Um, I also, one of the things I try to, um, live with the awareness That um, that in in I don’t know if I can adequately with all the issues that are out there. I don’t know if this whole kind of I can never tell ever, by any stretch where he leans politically. I don’t know if that’s realistic. I try to keep it as much as possible, but what I want is for as much as I can handle, for people who disagree with me on non-biblical imperatives, to not feel alienated by our church, or I don’t want this church to feel like the Republican church. I want it to feel like we’re clear on what the Bible kind.
Ed Stetzer:
Of tells people, probably where they’d assume you were on some of those things. I mean, you are an evangelical and a conservative evangelical denomination, and it does make statistical sense to make that assumption. So so do you. But I know a lot of people.
J.D. Greear:
I can’t equivocate about the egregious nature of abortion, you know, saying that somebody disagrees or, you know, thinks that that a certain side is not robust enough on poverty, that that is the same as the state sanctioned license of the murder of infants. Yes. They come out of my mouth at different volumes because of just the level of it. And so sometimes, yeah, they’re always trying, but I’m doing everything I can to say to create room for people to say, look, I mean, these other issues are I mean, poverty is talked about more in the Bible than, than just about anything else and our passion for it. And if that leads you to that or, you know, uh, systemic, um, dynamics that are if that leads you to, to look at this and say there are other issues besides just this that I want to think about, you know, whether or not I agree with you, I at least want to create space to say I’m not going to put division into the body of Christ where the Bible doesn’t do it. I mean, Romans 14 is a great example of this editor, because here you’ve got Paul, who definitely has an opinion. And it’s kind of funny because he starts out Romans 14, almost as if he’s not going to tell you what it is. And then it’s like he can’t help himself by that. You know, by halfway through the chapter. He’s like, so if you’re weak and you don’t agree with me, you know. So he definitely plays his hand. Like, if you’re weak and you just can’t see all this, you know? So so I’m trying to create that space. But yes, if it comes out and people are like, I kind of think I know where he leans. I’m like, Paul couldn’t hide it. I can’t I know Paul wasn’t in politics, but I can’t. But I’m going to try to create the space, even as I try to be faithful to talk about what the Bible talks about with the intensity and the frequency that it talks about it.
Ed Stetzer:
Okay, so so how then do we think in terms of let’s we not everyone listening is an American, but overwhelmingly people are familiar with the two party system. They’re familiar with the fact that white evangelicals overwhelmingly have moved into the Republican Party and tend to be conservative politically. I mean, they probably all know that, that more progressive social issues have kind of come together in a correlated pattern inside the Democratic Party. Um, and a lot of times, I think the the language that we inherited, you know, you and I have been in ministry for decades now is language from a generation where an older pastor might get up and say, listen, we have Democrats in this church and we have Republicans in this church. And that meant something different, you know, 20 years ago when I mean, back when Hillary Clinton was talking about abortion being safe, legal and rare to now where today the position of the party is, is quite, is quite stunningly out of step, even with Americans and even with, you know, Americans in polls. Now, again, I don’t think the pro-life position is the majority position, but certainly the party, the Democratic Party position is not. So do we do we sort of I mean, do we see both of these as equally problematic? Do we sort of say, well, you can be left, you can be right. You can be Democrat or Republican. You can follow Jesus. Or is there some distinction between the two that there there really are greater issues in one than the other. How do you articulate that? How do you walk through that?
J.D. Greear:
Well, that’s where I’m going to. I’m going to lean on Romans 14, because yes, I do think that there is it’s wrong to equivocate as if you know one side.
Ed Stetzer:
But, you know.
Ed Stetzer:
Even saying that. So you’re saying that being a Democrat or a Republican is a Romans 14 issue or give me more.
J.D. Greear:
So, you know, there are I would have a hard time just being very honest. Um, being having a hard time when I see particularly those two things, maybe I’d add a third one when I when I look at religious liberty challenges, when I look at some of the challenges to life, the very dignity and image of life and the unborn. And when I look at just the massive problems that this kind of gender chaos, intersectionality, all that stuff is creating, I have a hard time thinking I could ever be at peace with saying, yes, I’m I’m, you know, robustly, you know, on this other side. It’s just those things are so grievous. Now, at the same time, I’ve got some friends and I mentioned my British evangelical friends, some people in our church that because of whether it’s historic racism or because of what they see as systemic inequities and they see an apathy toward poverty, sometimes it’s things around gun control. I can disagree even with some of their solutions. I’m not saying that they’re all, you know, the wisest applications, but I at least emotionally, I understand where they are getting and coming at some of these things. And I can create room because I know politics is a very messy process where you’re trying to work through it. I can at least create room and say, that shouldn’t be something that divides Christians coming into the membership of a church. Um, I just will not draw lines where the Bible doesn’t draw them. And if somebody says, I agree with you, and I’m saying loudly that abortion is murder, and I’m saying that the LGBT agenda is something that is destroying and I and they go through those things and they say, but at the end of the day, I’m, you know, I feel like the biggest things in our society right now, the long term, then I can disagree with them.
J.D. Greear:
But I’m not going to say that as an issue of of fellowship in our church, if they’re being clear on what the Bible is clear on, that’s why I laid out those kind of six things and said, this is what every Christian should agree on. Even if you disagree on the political calculus of of what to do, of what to do, then I have my opinions and you can probably just hear them, even me talking about them. But I think we have to show a certain level of whether it’s restraint, um, or just a gospel humility that says, I am not going to let the good things of politics become the thing that keeps me from the ultimate one primary thing that I’ve been given. And I know that the moment that that I do, then I give up my one or about half of our city. It is is would um, Democrat. And I know that the way that these things work is the moment that we become labeled partisan, then I lose 50% of my mission field. So it’s never going to make me compromise truth, but it is going to make me say, I’m going to show a certain level of of restraint when it comes to things that are just not that are dotted lines in the Bible. Not not not not straight lines. Okay.
Ed Stetzer:
So so. All right. Agreed on. Um. Agreed. For example, on marginal tax rate, I think um, I really I’ve looked through the scriptures maybe second opinions. Chapter four addresses marginal tax rate. I think it’s better lower tax rates produce. And the entrepreneurial capitalism has lifted a billion people out of poverty. I’m quoting Bono there in the last 20 years. So I have opinions about that. But I would have a difficulty finding them in the text clearly articulated. Um, so but then when I do find things clearly articulated in the text, um, injustice, unfair scales, weights and measures, um, when I, when I find, when I do find that I mean, even Isaiah even addresses things like housing policy. I mean, I could, I could spend a lot of time on a lot of topics that are political. So we’ve already mentioned that have political dimensions, right? Certainly housing policy does certainly, um, preferential treatment in the, in the Epistle of James does certainly. You know, we talked about sexuality, we talked about gender, we talked about religious liberty, all of those things. So we know those are all there. But so how much and keeping in mind people are going to primarily be listening to this in August. So how much of your time or maybe if you want to because you did some of this in May, how much of the time of our audience would you recommend that they address those issues? Because I can go through the Bible and find a lot of biblical teaching that addresses a lot of cultural issues that would I don’t think they proportionally critique the parties because. But I think they do critique both parties and both parties positions. So I could I could do that. Is that the how much of my time should I spend doing that? I mean, you’re clearly implying I should do some. So how much of my time should I do?
J.D. Greear:
Well, if we’re talking about this in August and September, I would have encouraged people to do what I did, which is deal with it back in May. Let’s just assume that well, let’s.
Ed Stetzer:
Let’s do it like the last week of October. We’ll call it our series The October Surprise. So that’s. Yeah.
J.D. Greear:
Because everybody the problem in October is everybody interprets every little thing you’re saying as you say and therefore, you know, wink, wink. You guys know what I’m saying? That’s why I wanted to do it in May. But I do think that throughout the course of your your ministry, there ought to be plenty of times that you’ve been very clear on these things without everybody, you know, if there’s a disagreement in a husband or wife where she claims that he’s beating her and I get up and, you know, I say I’m impartial in this, but I want to talk about, um, you know, people who make up stuff about other people. That’s but everybody interprets that as me taking his side, not hers. And so so it’s a similar kind of thing. Everybody’s going to take what we say. So I think you’ve got to there’s got to be a of I’m going to I’m going to articulate these things, I’m going to talk about them. But I’m going to say that Jesus consistently stopped when he could have gone farther. And the example I always go to about that is Luke chapter 12, where two brothers come to Jesus and one is complaining that the other one, the younger brother’s, complaining the older brother is cheating him out of the inheritance, which scholars say was a legitimate social justice issue back in the day. And Jesus’s response is, man who made me a. Judge over you. Now you kind of look at that and you’re like, well, what a callous response.
J.D. Greear:
Did Jesus not care about justice? No. He talked about justice issues like that one and talked about the importance of of thinking, you know, he was built. His ministry was built on the proverbs. You know, you quoted a moment ago about justice, unjust scales being an abomination. Um, but he said he said he he refused to adjudicate it. And then he preached a sermon about greed that would have applied to them both. So, you know, my question is, well, why didn’t he get involved in that one? I mean, you know, he cares about justice. He certainly had the capacity and the ability. Well, I think you can look at the context and see that. Had he gotten had he gone on and solved that issue, then there would have been a lot of people after that that would have been like, Jesus, here’s my issue, and you also would have had him. He would have lost audience with at least half of his audience. And and he would have he would have alienated the one message he needed to preach to both of them, which had to do with the idolatry of the heart. Um, and so Jesus held back and said, this is who made me a judge over you, means that’s not my role right now. And then he basically preaches the gospel to them. I realize that there’s a lot of things that I could say from that pulpit, and I could go ahead and say, I’m going to go ahead and lay out for you the therefore vote for this candidate.
J.D. Greear:
Therefore do this. But I trying to follow what Jesus did and stop and just say, that’s not helpful for me to do right now. I’ve been clear on all these things of what the Bible teaches. But that last little bit where you connect the dots, I’m leaving that between you. And because I don’t want to put a place of division here, because I know that connecting that dot is going to bring labels and it’s going to bring it’s going to bring reputation that is going to impede the one thing that I have to do, and that is I’ve got to preach the gospel to both Republican and Democrat. That yes, deals with issues of righteousness, but is focused more on the heart and and righteousness toward God and each other than it is the. What does that mean for the the ballot box? I mean, I hate to use a cliche editor, but you know, Jesus, at the end of the day, does not call me to save America. He called me to to evangelize and make disciples of Americans. And that that is a byproduct of that is going to be saving America. But the focus, the tip of the spear that I’m using is going to be the gospel itself, applied to both Republican and Democrat. Yeah.
Ed Stetzer:
I mean, it is it is in a sense, it feels like a third way ism. And I want to talk about that. But you are also, you’ve been pretty clear on some cultural issues that almost feel like you’re giving us breadcrumbs of where we should go, but then not willing to take the step. So there are some Christian leaders and authors right now who would say to someone like J.D. Greer, who just said that, why don’t you just have some courage and tell them? I mean, it’s obvious who you should vote for. We’re in the midst of a civilizational crisis. And so quit the breadcrumbs and just tell us, have some courage and speak up and speak out. I mean, I know people have said that to you at your own church. So how do you respond to that? The Setzer Church Podcast is part of the Church Leaders Podcast Network, which is dedicated to resourcing church leaders in order to help them face the complexities of ministry. Today, the Church Leaders Podcast Network supports pastors and ministry leaders by challenging assumptions, by providing insights and offering practical advice and solutions and steps that will help church leaders navigate the variety of cultures and contexts that we’re serving in. Learn more at Church leaders.com/podcast network.
J.D. Greear:
Yeah. Well, Sam, what I’m trying to follow the only examples I have and Peter and Paul and Jesus, they, they, you know, they always seem to have an awareness of what’s going to take them away from the mission that God gave to them. And in this situation, I know, I know that the moment that I. Yeah, get rid of the bread crumbs and just say, this is what you should do. Here’s your Christian Coalition guide. This is what we’re all doing. Head out to the ballot box and do that. I know that that one step, that one step is going to mean it is going to mean that the next week our tenants will probably grow. Just for the record, if I do that. But what it will mean is it’s only a certain kind of person that will come to our church, a certain person with a with already a political leaning. And I say, if the price of not connecting the dots for people, if the price of that or the benefit of that is I get to preach the gospel to to everybody, to Jew and Gentile, then that’s something I’m willing to do because because what God called me to do is not to save America. That was not his. That’s not his. We are salt and light, which means it’s the byproduct of our being there. But the focus, the Son of Man came to seek and save the lost. And that’s got to that’s got to shape who we are. I think like a missionary. I don’t think like a chaplain of our society. I realize I have a role as a chaplain, but my primary call, acts one eight, is to be a missionary and not to be. And not just to be a, um, a state priest.
Ed Stetzer:
Yeah. And I do think that I mean, that’s helpful explanation. I don’t think it satisfies, you know, most people because a whole lot of people, maybe even some I shouldn’t say some people, most people do too broad. But I think at the end of the day, people are like, well, you know, if you can stop by your words, the advance of some of the very things that you said. Jd Greer, you said that you’re concerned about the devaluing of life. I think 100 years from now, our society is going to look back at this season and just with shock and horror at how we treated the unborn. Um, the, you know, you talked about, um, gender issues, gender identity, persons who are struggling with gender identity, ultimately, uh, how society or the American society is not even listening to the lessons we’re seeing from the UK, which is pulling back on these things, all these things. So if you just said more, JD, you might have a better country and in that better country, because if you could, your North Carolina is I don’t know if that I don’t know if that’s a swing state, but it’s been in the past. So so let’s say we have a better country. We have a more righteous context. I know you pray for the good of your city. You work for the welfare of your city. Why not use your platform more to work for the welfare of your country and articulate for the kind of change that’s for the good.
J.D. Greear:
Because it would switch out. The one thing that I’m called to do, which is make disciples. It would switch that out with something. That is another good agenda, but one that I see is supposed to be a byproduct. You just can’t read the New Testament. You cannot read the epistles and say that this was their primary focus. There were all kinds of problems in the Roman Empire, right, right, right.
Ed Stetzer:
But they were they had no ability to make change. I mean, if pastors like J.D. Greer got up, partnered together. And those groups, by the way, every day saying this to you, if we got up together and the Black Robe Regiment went out and said, we’re going to we’re going to change this country, the pastors of America could sway the vote. And in swaying the vote, you could have a different country experience. Again, don’t misunderstand. I come to similar conclusions as you, but this is what people hear every day from people in their church. And if the answer is kind of reverting back to, well, I want Democrats and Republicans to feel comfortable because, you know, that’s always been the way we did it in 30, 40 years ago. That was an easier sentence to say. Now it’s a lot harder. The situation hasn’t changed enough that you want to.
J.D. Greear:
Yeah. Let me be clear, I wouldn’t. I understand what you’re getting at with that, but I would not want to say I want Republicans and Democrats to feel comfortable. I want both of them to feel uncomfortable, maybe some more than others. It is a tragedy. And I say this and I’ve said it multiple. It is a tragedy that the last pro-life Democrat in the US Congress, um, was either voted out or what I think it was like three years ago that there was not a single one left. And that is a reality that if you if you for other reasons, you know, because you think of whether it’s racial justice or whether you think it’s poverty relief or gun control or whatever you put in that category. If you think that the left has a better approach when it comes to that, if that’s you, then then, then this is something that has got to be loudly condemned as you even as you say. I mean, I’ve got friends who who are very convinced that big government solutions are just better. I we have some spicy conversations about it, but let’s say it is a tragedy that there’s nobody representing that side that can also, you know, is going to be clear on pro-life. So is the practical answer. I need to convince everybody to vote, right? Or is it for me to to say, these are the things that God gave me to teach about and to proclaim, and I am going to I’m going to I’ve got to keep it clear.
J.D. Greear:
If you’re in the South in the 1860s, and let’s just say that you got the issue of slavery and you got the issue of whether or not where the balance should be on states rights versus federal things. Right? I don’t want to clutter up the the sinfulness of the slavery issue by then saying that if you agree, then you then you have to agree with federalised government. I would just say that may you may have a good argument there, but I’m going to preach about against slavery. But I’m not going to to say that the only way that that’s got to happen is through this over here. I’m going to try to focus on the issue and say where the Bible speaks clearly. I speak clearly where there’s an application of Christian wisdom. I think the Pauline example is you leave that to them. I can trust the church with that, because I’ve got to teach what the Bible teaches and show restraint the way that Jesus did. Jesus. It would have been a better world if Jesus had spoken out on, on on that issue that he was dealt with in Luke 12. He would have settled it once for all and got rid of that. But he said, there’s something even more important. And that more important thing is the gospel that I preach. And so there are times that I will back away from good to go with the, the best and the ultimate.
Ed Stetzer:
Interesting, interesting. And of course, you you know, abortion obviously looms very large in your, your thinking. That was the example that you went to. And in some ways you didn’t make the direct correlation, but, you know, talked about slavery in that kind of context as well. These are predominant issues that we should be preaching about. And I share your your concern about abortion. And yet even that’s become a lot less clear now that the Republican Party has removed that from the platform. Um, and basically adopted a states rights view, which, by the way, sounds kind of similar to what was taking place in the earlier example you just gave. Well, we’ll leave it up to the people.
J.D. Greear:
Respond to that by saying, well, one side is promoting abortion, the other side is just a little less clear on it now. But there’s nothing in the Republican platform that explicitly is like, we celebrate it, we encourage it. We, you know, so, so even there. But let me make your point that you were right.
Ed Stetzer:
But I do think the Democratic Party uses the word celebrate and encourage. But certainly I started writing about this when Cokie Roberts at NPR at the time noticed this. I’m trying to remember the RNC. Was it 2008 when the Democratic Party applauded abortion 22 times? And even when when NPR Cokie Roberts gets on and says this, this, this party has become obsessed with this topic, we see that to this day. And so I’m, you know, again, easy to Google Ed Stetzer views on some of these things and not in like easy places. Not not when, when you’re, you know, you’re writing on, on a blog or it’s your space. I mean, in CNN and USA today and other places. So so I’m with you I guess the then so you’re teaching and preaching on these issues. Abortion seems one that is particularly elevated of concern for you and for me as well. So what other issues?
J.D. Greear:
Gender questions.
Ed Stetzer:
What’s that?
J.D. Greear:
Hey, gender question. Were you about to ask me what the other ones were?
Ed Stetzer:
Rise to that level?
J.D. Greear:
Yeah, I mean, the whole gender thing right now is just destroying our, our I mean, whether it’s, it shows up in the, the version of intersectionality and woke stuff or whether it’s just the confusion of, we’re not going to call a man man or a woman a woman. I think that has devastating things for our society and I think Christians who are silent on it, um, you know, because they don’t want to get involved in politics or I mean, that’s that’s very, very foolish. I mean, you know, John the Baptist spoke out against sexual corruption and Herod and he lost his head on it. And Jesus didn’t say, you know, well, John, he shouldn’t have got involved in, in politics. You know that once you do that, you were going to, you know, lose your ability to preach because they’re going to cut off your head. He said, no, that’s the greatest prophet ever to live. And so, yes, there is a role where I have to. Good politics is a way of loving my neighbor, speaking out on issues of righteousness. I’ve got to say that even though it carries with it political overtones. Um, I think some of the problems is what I was trying to say about the some of the problems with things like critical theory, what it does to the very concept of justice, and the individual nature of, you know, innocent until proven guilty and what it means to to be in a free and fair society.
J.D. Greear:
I think that has devastated I think it’s been proven, whether it’s through, uh, you know, through a book like Critical Dilemma or other books that just show like, yes, this is going to underwrite you. It tears down the justice system. I think that’s worth speaking out about. I also think it’s worth speaking out about that the way that that that racism and injustice flourishes is when people that are in positions of influence talk in disrespectful and denigrating ways of others. There are certain kinds of speech that just should not ever be tolerated in the highest forms of public office. And you can say that there are are ways that that that certain people speak about, um, whether it’s women or whether it’s people of color. And to say that is having a devastating effect on the overall, uh, how we see one another and how we treat the you can say all those things and people when I say that last thing, they’re going to say, yeah, he’s saying that, you know, you should be a Never Trumper and never vote for Trump. And I’m like, yes, I realize some people are going to hear that, but I’ve got to speak out on issues of character and righteousness, even though you think that. Because that’s my role and I’ve got to speak the whole counsel of God, I’ve also got to talk about life and gender and and.
Ed Stetzer:
Your comparison there between between life, gender and mean tweets does seem an asymmetrical comparison. Um, so so. But you. But but I don’t disagree that that that again as one who has written about the really unhelpful words that we’ve heard from President Trump over the years, speaking of immigrants and refugees in ways that that that don’t speak of them as people made in the image of God, worthy of dignity and respect. Um, I guess the question then is like for me, you know, I just preached at a church, and afterwards a woman came up to me after church and she said, um, she was clearly rattled by something I said, and I didn’t really say anything that I thought would make people mad, but I talked about I was in Second Corinthians chapter five, and it talks about how we don’t see people from a worldly point of view, that Saint Corinthians 516 and I said, so we don’t need to be shaped by by others views of other people that we end up being angry with them or hateful towards them. And she came up to me and she said, you know, you didn’t mention this, but but do I need to change my heart towards your her words? Illegal immigrants? And I said, well, I don’t know what. Tell me about it. And she kind of described just this. She listens to a lot of I don’t know what she said. She said, I listen to a lot of people, and I’ve really just grown angry and bitter and hateful, and I just want, like, I feel it welling up within me.
Ed Stetzer:
And I said to her, I think Christians can have good discussions about immigration policy. I think I think borders matter. I think, you know, I think we need to secure our border and and we need to speak about immigrants and refugees in ways that that honor who they are. They’re made in the image of God, worthy of dignity and respect. So you can simultaneously advocate for a much stronger border policy and not get your heart filled with what you’re feeling right now. And it was really just a powerful conversation that she applied. So it kind of comes back to what you’re talking about. So she applied the teaching of the Scripture to what she had been caught up with. This just, just I mean, this this overwhelming, um, I’m trying to remember the term sheet. She might have used the term hatred. Um, and really, just the Lord used that. So I’m with you. I’m just. I’m trying to figure out. I’m trying to make sure that pastors don’t go away from here saying, okay, we got some good. Okay, don’t say this. Do say that. But speak up on issues that that clearly, you know, would lead people to think that the Democrats are bad and sometimes pick up on issues that clearly thinks Republicans are bad. But the issues between the two are not symmetrical. And so I know you’ve you’ve talked about racism and you’ve been concerned about issues of systemic racism. You’ve talked about other issues like that. So do those come up this season or or just just life and gender come up in the next few months?
J.D. Greear:
No, it came up. I mean, when I did those couple of messages, those were issues because they are perpetual and it’s not. There are perpetual American weaknesses and sins, um, that have historic examples and also contemporary, um, you know, examples of them as well. Um, so I, you know, I think they come up, it’s, uh, and I don’t think you I don’t think our role is to, like I said, equivocate, to say, you know, okay, I just named one side, and I got to ding the other side. Um, you know, and saying that. But what I do want to say to people like this woman that you’re talking to is we need people who have a fierce love for the border and how we do our immigration process, who also really love the immigrant. Like we don’t want to equate we want to say we these issues, there’s a love for the immigrant and a respect that ought to express itself, yes, even in tight border policies, because, you know, unless almost all people recognize a certain limit to the, you know, to the how we’re going to do the immigration process, it just we shouldn’t get put into these, these categories. And there ought to be a clarity about what is what is clear and what is right. Um, I think it’s easy to get swept up in this moment right here, right now, and not think bigger picture in terms of of our testimony that the one thing that God has called the church to do is to to go after and seek and save the lost, to be a missionary.
J.D. Greear:
And that means that, um, you know, I have a role in public righteousness. I have a whole a role in speaking out clearly, but I never want to lose the tip point of what God has told me to do, which is to make disciples. And I think you just see a certain element of, you know, public restraint in it and even a certain charity that allows other people to be wrong in their political calculus that doesn’t respond with fear of, well, now we’re giving away, you know, America, I can trust God with that. If I will make disciples, if I will do faithfully what Jesus told me to do, then I trust that we will be in our society what he wants us to be, which is to be salt and light. And if somebody interprets that to say you’re you’re you’re not speaking up, you’re not being courageous enough. I’d say, look, I’ve, I’ve called on our governor Publicly to repent and to change his policies on abortion.
J.D. Greear:
There have been policies that we have talked about in church. Um, there have been clear teachings on gender and and the problems of the. The problem is not if we’re looking at issue by issue. The problem is not a lack of courage, but it is a restraint that is done in the service of the gospel, recognizing that, um, that, yes, politics is a messy process. There’s a little thing I’ve done with my kids. I’ll throw it out because and, you know, all these things, but just helping them think I said, you know, let me just, just just throw out a, a scenario if, um, if, uh, Russia became just stridently pro, right. Sorry, pro-life and just said abortion is just wicked and wrong, it’s still very communist. But that’s what they they say. And they said that, um, they pressured the UN to pass a resolution that would make abortion illegal in the United States, and the UN didn’t do it. And then Russia said, we’re going to invade the United States Estates and take over United States, and we’re going to make it communist so that it can be pro-life. It’s like, so which side would you, would you, would you would you fight on? Would you take up arms against the Soviet invaders or would you? You know, my kids are like, well, I think I’d side with America.
J.D. Greear:
So I said, so you side with this over the pro-choice issue, you’d be pro pro-choice and anti Russia even though they’re pro-life and it at least helped them recognize there are other issues besides just that one that end up going into these kinds of decisions. That’s not to draw a direct corollary to where we are now or anything there. It is just to say that we recognize that I need to speak full throated, without caveat, on the destructive nature of sin in whether it’s pro-life or gender confusion or any of these, or racism. And I need to do that, and I need to speak it with the volume that, that, that, that, that God that God speaks with, with in the Bible. And if people interpret that as a political leaning, then they’re they’re going to do that. But I’m going to stop short. I’m going to show that restraint, because I’ve got to do the one thing that Jesus told me to do, which is to seek and save the lost. And that means being wise about about what certain going that extra bit and and making dotted lines in a straight lines, what it’s going to do to to my ability to reach people.
Ed Stetzer:
Okay. So what then do you do. Because people will try to walk this line and sometimes it’ll work, sometimes it’ll fail. Uh, what do you do when people intentionally try to twist your words, take part of what you say, misrepresent it. What happens then?
J.D. Greear:
You know it. Always go to what Paul did in first Corinthians. There’s a little bit of irony in in Philippians. You compare Philippians and Corinthians in one place. Paul goes on talking about why he just doesn’t defend himself. He even says they speak ill of me, but Christ is preached, and therefore I rejoice. And you know, I’m rejoicing that Christ is preached. I’m not going to defend myself. But then in another place, like First Corinthians, he actually spends a whole chapter defending himself because he says this would actually be better for the gospel. This is not a super clear answer I’m going to give you, but I try to determine in each one what’s better for the message is it is it is it that if I come out and I’ve got if the point is exonerating or vindicating JD Greer, I think that’s useless. I’ve just got to trust Jesus the way that Paul did and say, hey, if you trash me, it’s that’s that’s not my concern. I’m not the guard of my reputation. Now, if what you’re saying is actually confusing the message, then yes, I need to speak up on that. And sometimes that means showing. Hey, what you’re saying. I’m saying that’s not what what it was. I’ve had to do that on multiple occasions. So again, that’s not a that’s not an easy answer to say always do this every time. But it is sort of some principles that you use. What what am I defending here. I’m not going to I just I can’t I like Paul, I know it would be an endless and a pointless thing to try to preserve JD Greer’s reputation in and everybody’s mind. That’s useless to God. What I need to make sure is that the gospel stays clear.
Ed Stetzer:
I think it’s been pretty clear of your in your thinking here today. And so thanks for taking the time for the conversation.
J.D. Greear:
Yeah, thanks. And I’m hoping this conversation doesn’t turn into one of those endless sources of soundbites for everyone.
Ed Stetzer:
See, you never know. It’s 2024, brother.
Daniel Yang:
We’ve been talking to doctor J.D. Greer. You can learn more about him at J.D. greer.com. And thanks again for listening to this Church Leaders podcast. You can find more interviews, as well as other great content from ministry leaders at Church leaders.com/podcast. And again, if you found our conversation today helpful, I’d love for you to take a few moments to leave us a review that will help other ministry leaders find us and benefit from our content. Thanks for listening and we’ll see you in the next episode.
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