D.A. Carson on The Stetzer ChurchLeaders Podcast.mp3: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.
Voice Over:
Welcome to the Stetzer Church Leaders Podcast, conversations with today’s top ministry leaders to help you lead better every day. And now, here are your hosts, Ed Stetzer and Daniel Yang.
Daniel Yang:
Welcome to the Sister Church Leaders Podcast, where we’re helping Christian leaders navigate and lead through the cultural issues of our day. My name is Daniel Yang, national director of Churches of Welcome at World Relief. And today we’re talking with doctor D.R. Carson. Doctor Carson’s emeritus professor of New Testament at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, and co-founder and theologian at large at the Gospel Coalition. He’s edited and authored numerous books, including The Cross and Christian Ministry Leadership Lessons from First Corinthians. Now let’s go to Ed Stetzer, editor in chief of Outreach Magazine and the dean of the Talbot School of Theology.
Ed Stetzer:
Well, we have D.R. Carson, Don Carson here on the podcast, which is very exciting for me. Don’s been a significant shaper of my theological understanding on all kinds of topics. And so I’m thankful for this conversation. And really I wanted to talk some. Well, we’re going to talk some about his book, a very, very well known book that’s been reprinted more than once, called The Cross and Christian Ministry Leadership Lessons from First Corinthians, but also just in general, about what it looks like to to kind of minister in a theologically grounded or a theologically rooted way, which for some of our audience is is a is maybe a challenging new idea for others or audience. It’s like, no, this is something we should do. But I love how the Gospel Coalition statement on ministry and Mission brings a lot of these things together. And so I thought I’d start there. Don, tell me about how you and Tim and the launching of the Gospel Coalition came together and brought together, you know, some of these practical ideas of ministry with theological depth and rootedness. Well, Tim.
D.A. Carson:
Keller and I started working together before we actually met. Um, I edited a book called, um, worship by the book in which I brought together a Baptist and a Presbyterian and an Anglican, and 1 or 2 others to talk about their understanding of what the Bible says about how we should go about worship. And then we responded to each other and so on. And we did all that before we actually met in those days. Uh, Tim was about halfway through his his phenomenal ministry in New York City, but was doing very little travel. So he was simply not well known. And then in 2002, he and I were both speaking at a conference in London. And we got to know each other. And and he turned out to be the kind of friend who, when you start talking, it just doesn’t stop. In other words, we were on the same we were on the same wavelength and and we became pretty good friends on all kinds of issues. And then a couple of years later, I was in Princeton for something or other, and he invited me to spend a day in New York. And during that time we started talking about whether or not there were strategic things that we might do to challenge the Church of Jesus Christ, to return to Bible centricity, to to expository preaching and teaching, to confessionalism.
D.A. Carson:
What was needed? And one of the things we decided was that it should not be the product of 1 or 2 guys. We invited 40 from different denominations, different parts of the country, different races, different cultures, different denominations, but 40 of us. And to to pray, to get to know one another, to tussle about what might usefully be done. And we invited 40 and 40 people showed up. That was simply amazing. It was, in my view, the first sign that God was going to bless this business. And so in any case, this led to the first public meeting in 2007, and the first public meeting we had was 650 people in the Trinity Chapel. And two years later, we had 2700 people in a conference room. The year after that, we had 9000. And it was clearly scratching where some people were itching. And we set out to prepare a statement of faith and a theological vision of ministry that, um, we would agree on that. We were it indicated we were pulling in the same direction that had the same vision of what was needed. And and that was the beginning of the Gospel coalition.
Ed Stetzer:
Fascinating. I think putting it in the context of, um, I don’t know, the season it was in, I’m writing a book on the future of evangelicalism, probably like everybody else is anyway. Um, and in 1994, David Wells published, You know, No Place for Truth Whatever Happened to Evangelical Theology? In 1995, Rick Warren published The Purpose Driven Church. I sort of contrast the two in the influence that they had. And at that time there was, you know, there were the theologically minded people, and then there were the maybe the practical, ministry minded people. And, you know, the Gospel Coalition, I would say, certainly would be on the theologically minded side of things, but but had a theological vision for ministry that in some ways kind of captured the attention. I mean, I wouldn’t have guessed that, that it would have taken off like it did. So what? I mean, considering that that the Purpose Driven Church became the best selling church leadership book of all time. Um, there was also but and, you know, in Wells was saying, what happened? Evangelical theology. But then you kind of came in and you tried to wedge some of those things together. Why were people drawn to a theological vision for ministry rather than just a practical vision for ministry? I shouldn’t say it’s not without being practical, but why were they drawn to that, do you think?
D.A. Carson:
Some people with longer memories remembered when there was a centrality to rich Bible teaching that was seen as part of what is essential to genuine revival and genuine reformation and genuine spiritual formation. So in God’s timing, I think we came along and scratched where people were itching, but that was part of it. Also, we early on decided that all the council members and we normally run between 40 and 60 council members. All the council members had to be pastors. So we had a few exceptions, but we weren’t loaded for bear with with theologians who weren’t pastors. We weren’t loaded for bear with theoreticians. Um, we because we we held that pastors have a different set of questions to those who are teaching theology in a seminary. Now, ideally we want some of both, but but the driving pressure of leadership in TJC from the beginning was, was was the insight of pastors. And that certainly shaped the directions we took.
Ed Stetzer:
Yeah it makes sense. And so okay so then this resource gospel coalition okay. I don’t know that I don’t know anybody who probably is not aware. And it was listening to my podcast is aware of the Gospel Coalition and all the resources that are there over at TGC. Okay. So but let’s talk somewhat philosophically. So because I live in this weird world where I have the wonderful joy of speaking at some of these large, I’ll be speaking at this large church planting conference called exponential. And, you know, there’s, you know, just these super innovative, let’s try new things. I’m really thankful for the desire to try new things and reach people in fresh ways. And sometimes I go to a meeting like that, and part of what I’m, I feel like I’m there to do is to say, hey, let’s let’s also think about the theological implications of this, and then I’ll sometimes be at kind of a more, kind of a more, I don’t know, a more conservative or theologically driven. And I’m like reminding them. I know Mark never once asked me to write an article about what what I wish nine Marx purists knew about church planting. Some of the practical things. Anyway, So all those things together. Why is it important that there is a kind of a theological vision for ministry? Why is it important that these that theology informs the way we do ministry? Not simply what works, informs the way we do ministry. Help us to think that through.
D.A. Carson:
Well, when we ask what theology says, those of us from the evangelical heritage are really asking what the Bible says. Yeah. And if we really do hold that the Bible is the word of God, and we must take our, uh, not only our, our big movements, but our, our cues, our centrality, our devotion to Christ and so on from the Bible. Then that is going to become a big part of our teaching, our preaching and so forth. And moreover, the kinds of people we look for on the council early on, they were from different denominations and different backgrounds, but they all had to be evangelists. They all had to be expositors. They had to be interested in winning people for Christ. So that became part of our drumbeat from the beginning, too. And it and some of them were in very difficult circumstances. There are parts of the country where gospel preaching is hard work. Yeah. And there are other parts of the country where produces a lot of fruit really quickly. And we purposely had some of both kinds of people on our council. And um, and so, um, ideally, I would argue that we should become more biblically driven, more theological in, in as much as we are claiming to bow to the lordship of King Jesus. Um, we want to know what he says as he has left his word to tell us. And, um, and so we want to be driven by, by our understanding, our probing understanding of what Scripture says and how to apply it to our lives rather than by the current social matrices.
Ed Stetzer:
But you’ve been around long enough, Dawn. And you’ve. I mean, in Chicagoland and beyond. You know that it worked. I mean, the reality is boomers came back to church. The secret movement brought boomers back to church. There are people who are followers of Jesus today, might even be in the gospel coalition today who were influenced or impacted by churches. That said, let’s de-emphasize our doctrine and theology. Let’s focus on on, you know, the basics and let’s make it evangelistically appealing and reach out to seekers. And I think the seeker movement has waned, in part because people’s questions changed. And and people, you know, now, today, I mean, I have all kinds of people saying that I need more theological education because just saying everyone already assumes these things. So I think for decades people said in the practical church world which which often I run, people said, well, we believe those things, but what we need is better organizational strategies. What we need is to update our worship service. Maybe we need to spruce up our building and speed up the music and spice up the sermons. Um, and I think it’s fair to say that we can see in research and the numbers that people were drawn to that. And then then of course, there was some real side effects of that as well. So now I think people are saying this isn’t working anymore. Right. The most secret churches aren’t don’t even use that term anymore. So they need a new vision. And that vision could be, I don’t know, to get more aggressive, practical, to get people’s eyeballs or to embrace a more theological vision for ministry. So talk in a, in an older man who’s seen a lot on this journey to that 45 year old pastor who’s kind of seeing the tail end of the secret movement and saying, I want to, you know, pastor or staff member, you know, he or she is thinking, I want to. I want to embrace a more theological vision for ministry, because that’s what’s necessary now. But what could I do to begin that? Does that make sense?
D.A. Carson:
Yes, although, because that’s what’s necessary, you say. I know, I.
Ed Stetzer:
Know, I said that on purpose for them. I said that, but I want you to tell us why that’s the wrong maybe way even to think of that.
D.A. Carson:
Yeah, it’s not all wrong, but. But there’s a deep flaw to it. It’s still is holding up the the success, uh, that is desired as the ultimate test, the summum bonum, the thing that we’re most desirous of achieving. And in my case, I was brought up in French Canada, which is another part of the world, and very few evangelicals there at the time. And, and, uh, in a population of 6.5 million, uh, as recently as the early 70s, um, there were only about 40 churches of any evangelical description whatsoever, with none of them holding more than 40 or 50 people, and a lot of them only 20 or 30 people. Um, so I was brought up in that context.
Ed Stetzer:
Yeah. Know.
D.A. Carson:
Partly because of that. And what I had held up in front of me was be faithful, study the scriptures. Make sure you understand what’s going on. Don’t do it just because it is said to work or not to work. Um. Make sure you’re shaped by the Word of God. So that was part of my heritage and I’m forever grateful for it. So I don’t want to laugh at something because it’s popular, and I don’t want to despise it because it’s popular. That’s good. Or unpopular? If we really do hold that our direction is being shaped fundamentally by Holy Scripture, then we’ve got to think through ways of coming back to what Scripture says again and again and again and again, and find ourselves renewed by Scripture. Now, one of the reasons why we started off at the Gospel Coalition with two foundational documents was precisely because of these sorts of questions. We not only wrote a statement of faith, which is an amalgam of 2 or 3 other well-known statements of faith, but we wrote what came to be called the theological vision of ministry. Consider, for example, um, just to pick on any denomination to begin with. Pick on let’s, let’s say reformed pastors in the PCA, um, who uphold the Westminster. Uphold the Westminster Confession, honestly, and so on. But you can find some who are, um, virtually in psalm singing mode, um, very conservative in their, uh, analysis of cultural drifts and so on. And others are, um, they don’t believe in ties. They they’re dressed informally.
Ed Stetzer:
They sure.
D.A. Carson:
They’re, they’re with it. Um, and and yet they’re all PCA and they’re all statement of faith Westminster. And and you begin to realize that it’s not just a statement of faith that is shaping the the practical directions of local churches. It’s it’s how you do ministry. How you put together your choices for corporate worship and and so on. So we we wrote this document called A Theological Vision of Ministry. And we all had to edit it and sign on to it and so on. And and there is something both iconoclastic about it. It’s, it’s open to revision from Scripture, but at the same time there’s something conservative about it, too, going back to foundations that have recurred again and again and again and again in church history and trying to be refreshed and reformed and and revitalized by, by God’s most holy word and, and one of the things I think that has drawn people to the Gospel Coalition is precisely because of this combination of of diligent study doctrinally and that sort of thing, and but also trying to think through what that means for how we should act, how we should put things together. That doesn’t mean we’ll agree on every point, but at least we hold it up as a as a. This is something we really desire, something we want to pursue and think about.
Ed Stetzer:
So is there because I want to I mean, again, a good podcast has a little friendly pushback. The Setzer Church Podcast is part of the Church Leaders Podcast Network, which is dedicated to resourcing church leaders in order to help them face the complexities of ministry. Today, the Church Leaders Podcast Network supports pastors and ministry leaders by challenging assumptions, by providing insights and offering practical advice and solutions and steps that will help church leaders navigate the variety of cultures and contexts that we’re serving and learn more at Church leaders.com/podcast network. Is there not a appropriate place for someone like me to say, who may have a voice in the contemporary church world to say, you know, you know, and I try to be charitable towards people of different traditions and faiths, and you do as well. That’s what I was saying. Um, but for me to say, you know, I think ultimately I get what you’re trying to do in the seeker movement. But the reality is, when, you know, we’ve lost our home field advantage in culture, you can’t assume that anyone understands the gospel or the basics of the cross of Christ or what Jesus died on the cross for our sin in our place. What that means, uh, therefore, the theological downplaying that was very common in the last few decades in one way doesn’t work. I know, I know, you rejected that term, which I’m okay with it. Uh, but but ultimately, for them, that may be the draw to say people are asking different questions. We’re in a different time, and I need to walk to a more robust theological grounding in my ministry and mission. What you’re saying is you should start there in the first place and therefore build that from there. Is that a fair? And if so, restate it for me, so I may I say it fairly.
D.A. Carson:
I agree with what you are saying that I am supposed to be saying. Yeah.
Ed Stetzer:
That’s a good way to. Okay. Fair. Okay. So so then how then. Because one of the things that was. Go ahead. You please go ahead. Good.
D.A. Carson:
But I would say further that it’s not just a question of starting there, but re reforming, re reforming, re reforming ourselves constantly by going back again and again and again and testing everything by the Word of God.
Ed Stetzer:
Yeah.
D.A. Carson:
This notion of testing things by the Word of God is something that Confessionalism has held to in theory for centuries, but it has not been a clarion call in recent decades. Agreed. And and I think that there that there are voices now beginning to talk along those lines is a good thing that promises blessing down the line.
Ed Stetzer:
Yeah. Me too.
Ed Stetzer:
I think it’s a good thing to. That’s one of the things I wanted to have you on the podcast, because I think you have been a voice that I have, you know, recommended to many people in those just your own influence on your writing to, to me. Um, okay. But let’s let’s again, I’m trying to help people think this through and you’re helping me do that. So. So then we want to be, uh, you know, constantly referring back to Scripture. We want to ask, you know, we want our we want our ministry and mission to flow from our understanding of Scripture. And then I guess the question becomes, it was interesting to watch, um, Tim Keller’s and so thankful for him and his ministry, but to he wrote this article once on and then reflected it some in center church that but uses one example of how you lead differently based on the size of the church. You talked about the smaller church, the midsize church. It became one of his most popular popular articles. And what I found a little fascinating was that how for a lot of reformed or theologically minded people, uh, to be perfectly blunt, that article could have been written by the Church Growth movement in the 1990s. Matter of fact, it was written by that. You know, people like Karl George talked about how to, you know, organize and lead your church at different sizes.
Ed Stetzer:
But I think when Tim Keller wrote it, it was like, okay, now this is somebody who who understands or comes from a theological perspective of Westminster affirming confession or reformed. So how should we think of it? Can we, can we? And again, because I didn’t find that article to be particularly, you know, and here’s why the Scripture teaches you should lead a size of 2000 different than a size of a church of 200. So how do we draw in those sociocultural truths into our understanding of growing and leading a church while remaining theologically grounded? Because it seems that when Tim Keller wrote it, people were enthusiastic about it? I think when Karl George wrote it, people. And I don’t think Tim Keller and Karl George would know each other. And there’s I’m not being critical of either. I mean, obviously, Keller is a huge influence on my life and ministry. Um, how how would we take some of those truths Or do we have to have a scriptural verse that sort of points to. Here’s how you organize a church of 2000. Does my question make sense? And the distinction between the church growth movement and the and the maybe the new reformed Ministry of Mission approach?
D.A. Carson:
Well, to say that we’re driven to ask questions about what should change, yeah, does not necessarily mean that all the questions are raised by the scriptures themselves, or that the only relevant comments and answers are attached to a chapter and a verse.
Ed Stetzer:
Right?
D.A. Carson:
Um, there are there are big issues that that are driven by Scripture, even though the little things that go into them, um, are often subtle. Uh, for example, um, we’re all familiar with the fact that that that the, the gospel preaching in acts 15, uh, which is still dealing with the, the debate between Judaism and and and Hellenism is different from the gospel preaching in in acts 13. That’s because the audience is different. It’s not because Paul or Luke has changed his mind. Nor am I convinced that they have. They have got to the place where they’re saying the circumstances have changed. We we need we need now to do something else. Rather, because they’re driven by the gospel and driven by concern for people and, and are increasingly aware of of the kinds of questions that Greek pagans are asking as compared with people in the synagogues asking questions. They make adjustments and, and, and we do that sort of thing all the time. And it’s not a bad thing to do. The problem comes when we feel we have to justify what we’re doing in some sort of almost, um, massive way. The times call for something or other. Well, maybe maybe they do call for that in Alabama, but it might not be quite the same in downtown Manhattan.
Ed Stetzer:
Yeah.
D.A. Carson:
So that sometimes when we say we’re driven by by the agendas of Holy Scripture, we mean that. Well, recognizing that the agendas themselves are are shaped by the interaction of Scripture with, with the corners where we live and, and that, that that involves subtlety and patience and perseverance and honesty and self-criticism and and so on.
Ed Stetzer:
You know, I think there are biblical teachings about church and mission that should be true in a, you know, in a, in a in Kenya and should be true in Kentucky. I mean, they’re they’re they’re universally true. And I think people need to wrestle through them. You know, some of our friends have talked about marks. I’ve written a little thing about six marks of a biblical church, not because it’s a contrast to nine marks, the ministry. I just collapsed a few categories, but there should be things that should be true in every church, in every time and every place. And those should be shaped by the Scripture and and really just understanding of the gospel. I do wonder, though, I sometimes say, And I’ll let you critique me live on my own podcast. I sometimes say to people after after I say what I just said, that there are things that should be true. And every time, every place, every time, um, that the how of ministry is also in many ways determined by the who, when and where of culture. Let me say it again. The how of ministry is in many ways determined by the who, when and where of culture. So can those things be simultaneously true that we have theologically driven ministry and also a cultural I don’t know. The word relevance gets complicated, but culturally appropriate as well.
Ed Stetzer:
Yes. Of course. Okay.
D.A. Carson:
I don’t see a problem with that, so long as you recognize that it is such a generalized statement that we might then disagree as soon as we turn a corner and and try to decide what things are culturally flexible and which ones are are mandated by holy writ and they should not be moved.
Ed Stetzer:
Yeah, no, that’s super helpful and I agree. So so come to me now to a book that really I mean I used I’ve taught seminary classes using the cross and Christian ministry leadership lessons from First Corinthians because you are I mean you’re kind of it’s you’re kind of hard to explain to people. And we had the introduction at the beginning, but you’re so multifaceted in your in your areas of expertise. I spoke after you. We both spoke at Moore College, I think at the same event one year after I came on after you, and I forget what they told me you spoke on and I was like, I didn’t know he could speak on that. You’re you know, I think someone called you one of the last great Renaissance men in evangelical biblical scholarship. So you you cover the field of topics and, and again, but particularly New Testament, you know, hermeneutics, biblical theology, more, um, writing a book on leadership. What draw you drew you to First Corinthians? And what drew you to the topic of writing on leadership?
D.A. Carson:
What drew me to the topic of radical leadership, that that book was driven in the first instance by an agreement to speak on the topic of leadership in a couple of international situations, IFS and so on. And, and and the more I thought of it, the more I realized that what I do most where the heart of my ministry is, is exposition of Scripture, right? So I could have given some topical discussions on the nature of leadership and how it differs in the secular world and from the confessional world and and so on. And probably much of what I would have said would have been very similar to, to to what I did say. But by anchoring it in thought through exposition of First Corinthians one through four and nine, and then I was simultaneously feeding people from the Word of God, encouraging people to get their lode stars on what leadership is from Scripture. And so and so. I was trying to help people to look to Scripture first to get some help in these fundamental areas. So you’re right. My my ministry has been a bit scattered on what it’s touched and covered. And so to be fair.
Ed Stetzer:
I did not use the word scattered. I called you a Renaissance man. There’s a difference between the two.
D.A. Carson:
Well, scattered is probably closer to the truth. Fair enough. But in any case, um, it has forced me to think through things from Scripture again and again and again, so that I want people to remember the the centrality of the Word of God and look there for their, for their lodestars and and so, so that even if they haven’t got everything that those chapters say about leadership, they have, still they will still remember the importance of starting from Scripture and moving out, rather than than choosing a topic and adding a few convenient proof texts.
Ed Stetzer:
Which is far too often what happens, you know, in the book you talk about first Corinthians four and what does it reveal? I mean, you’ve read that book a long time ago and then rewrote it. What are some things that it reveals to us about what it means to be a Christian leader, since that’s the kind of the heart of our audience as church leaders.
D.A. Carson:
Well, amongst the things that stand out in those chapters is, is, is the centrality of the cross of Christ, not only as the basis of our salvation, of our acceptance before God, but the centrality of the cross of Christ for how we look at people and how we try to win people at the, the, the argument of relationships and and so on. Um, uh, driven by what Scripture says, driven by the character of Christ, driven by his self-abasement for the sake of others. The gospel is more than believing that Jesus died on the cross for my sin. And starting from that centrality, it affects how we view others, how we treat others, how we talk to others, and how we serve others. Um, and so you come across Paul saying things like, I made myself all things to all men, so that by all means I might win some. Now, obviously that does not mean I made myself an adulterer so that I could win adulterers. There are some limitations that are imposed from the text and the context and so on. But but it does mean that that that we’re not relying on, on hard nosed theory of leadership to justify a certain stance publicly, where we’re looking for what builds the church, for what drives people to Christ, for the example of the Savior himself, and for For a link with with the one who claims that that people should come to him because he is meek and lowly in heart, and ye shall find rest for our souls in him. And and that begins to shape what we do, what we think, how we interact with other people, and so on. And and if we can absorb some of those things in our own lives and live them out, then then on the long haul, it it is reflecting the glories and beauties of Christ.
Ed Stetzer:
And that.
Ed Stetzer:
Theologically rooted ministry. Um, and that theologically grounded mission that you’re calling us to. You’ve said it should start from the Scripture and move out from there. And I like that language. I think that’s helpful. And then you just talked about how, you know, the gospel itself. And I think early on, you, I mean, I might be reading into your reading. You you talked about the implications of the gospel, and they later talked about some of the entailments of the gospel. I’m I’m so what would that look like? What would gospel to, you know, not just theological, but use the term gospel shaped ministry. Gospel centered. That’s almost become, you know, almost trademarked by. But what would. Gospel centered ministry look like? That would make it different than maybe, maybe just driven by pragmatism or human centrality.
D.A. Carson:
When we began the Gospel Coalition, we actually talked about calling it instead the Evangelical Coalition.
Ed Stetzer:
Oh, wow.
D.A. Carson:
Because, of course, the two words have the same background. Um, but evangelical in many parts of the country, it carries a lot of garbage that we have to. Tim Keller used to say that that in New York City, if he’s talking about evangelicals, he has to explain how that’s different from from Protestant jihadists. Yeah. Um, in other parts of the country doesn’t mean a thing. It’s a religious word, but you’ve got to fill it with content. But you want to use words that the Bible uses. The Bible uses gospel and and or evangelical. So we want to use it and explain it and, and then see what it means for those who are writing about it, the apostles and, and other New Testament writers. Um, what what what what what what do they what do they see in that? What what are they calling men and women to? And First Corinthians is particularly strong in showing that it’s not just a set of propositions as as truthful as they are and as foundational as they are. But, but, but propositions that shape our our longings, our desires, our our goals, our hopes, our our view of leadership.
D.A. Carson:
Uh, and these start with, with the example of Christ. But but they go through the example of Christ to the examples of the apostles and, and and so, uh, I don’t want the gospel to become something that is assumed. One of the quickest ways you can destroy the gospel, in my view, is by assuming it, uh, the gospel, if it’s understood in a New Testament sense, is that which gets us out of bed in the morning and turns us on. It’s what is central. It’s what we dream about. It’s what we think about. It’s what we pray about. Um, and from within that framework. Then. Then it shapes us, uh, in ways that touch how we envisage the ministry and leadership and all of these other things. But we don’t arrive there by by assuming the gospel and then focusing our attention on, on, on ministry styles. We come back to the gospel again and again and again and again and build our ministry styles out of our understanding of what is central to God’s redeeming work.
Ed Stetzer:
I will tell you that that that phrase that, you know, assuming the gospel and then focusing on our ministry styles is one of the more important things I think, that I’ve just seen in the last few years. You know, if you look back, you know, I you know, I haven’t I don’t have the longevity you have. But now one of my 37 years of pastor is that there was a season when a lot of people said, we’re going to assume the gospel. So we’ll teach practical things, you know, help people come to Christ, teach practical things, and focus on ministry style. And I think some of the good people who love Jesus. But the unintended consequences were substantive. And now I think there’s an opportunity for us to cast a vision for a different way. The challenge is, is sometimes people see the Gospel Coalition just as sort of maybe one wing of the evangelical tradition I want. I want Wesleyans, I want Anglicans, I want Pentecostals, I want Baptists, I want reformed people all to say, how do I how do I have this gospel centrality? And so, so I that’s one of the reasons I wanted to have you on to talk about that. So. So if you wouldn’t mind, I mean. Talk to some people who may be like, you know, I’m maybe I’m not reformed. Maybe I’m, I’m not in the same space as the gospel coalition on this issue or that issue, but could you maybe cast a vision for what it might look like to have a gospel centered, centered ministry, uh, in different denominational traditions?
D.A. Carson:
Yes. We have sometimes been accused of being divisive. And TGC, it is sometimes said by our interlocutors, would be better off if it were not known to be reformed, if it were not known to be to embrace both Baptists and Baptists and so on and so on and so on. And there’s a part of me that wants to say, yes, that’s that’s right. And there’s another part of me that wants to say, no, that’s wrong. And the reason, in part, is because there is a danger of looking for a lowest common denominator evangelical theology.
Ed Stetzer:
Yeah.
D.A. Carson:
When I look around the country at the biblical ministries that are most faithful in their expository preaching, that are. Full of probing application of the Word of God to the hearts and lives of men and women, and so on. When I look around the country, almost without exception, the speakers at those things, the the leaders, the movement shakers in those things are people who are deeply, deeply, deeply sold out to one particular heritage of of of gospel understanding. Yeah. And in our case, it’s it’s probably the reformed heritage. Sure. But but if you try to find a position where everybody’s happy because they’re putting up with each other’s views, then eventually putting up with each other’s views is more important than trying to be sold out to the truth, as you understand it. That’s right.
Ed Stetzer:
And every time that’s been tried, it hasn’t worked. We can look back historically, right?
D.A. Carson:
It comes back to lowest common denominator theology.
Ed Stetzer:
Right.
D.A. Carson:
So I’d rather work with Christians who disagree with me on some important issues that that we agree to disagree on and so on. But, but, but not to pretend that it doesn’t matter. Yeah. When I take a look at the crowds, we still draw in for the Gospel Coalition. Uh, a lot of the people that come to our conferences and involved in our Bible studies and that sort of thing, and don’t agree with all of the leaders on all the issues that are brought up. But they like to come because they find that 90 or 90 5 or 98% of what we’re teaching is really central biblical stuff. And their souls are fed. They their imaginations are fired by, by by what these Christian leaders and are teaching and thinking and, and I’m happy if they come and, and and find themselves drawn to the gospel of Christ.
Ed Stetzer:
Yeah.
Ed Stetzer:
I think ultimately it is theologically right to begin with a rootedness in the scriptures and let our ministry flow from their gospel centrality. Again, people might use different language on that. That’s fine. But to see that shape and I think it’s theologically appropriate. Again, I’m a missiologist in this day to recognize that people have a lot more complex questions. And I think leaning into our theology is also a well, it’s one of those things that at this moment, I think ultimately is an important thing for churches, maybe, who haven’t done that, to say maybe this is something I need to do more with hearing. Also, what you’re saying that that’s something we want them to do in general. But I think ultimately those things point to, I think, an opportunity for gospel centered Christians to live on mission in the midst of a broken and a hurting world. Last question for you. Um, you got pastors and church leaders listening. You’ve talked to pastors and church leaders all around the world. Uh, but one last piece of advice and exhortation would you want to give them?
D.A. Carson:
Never, never, never give up from working away at the Bible to make it central to your thinking, your goals, your vision of ministry. Your understanding of the truth and who Jesus is. Go back to the Bible again and again and again and again.
Ed Stetzer:
It’s a good word. We’ll take that out at that point. And thank you, Don Carson, for for taking the time to be with us.
Ed Stetzer:
It’s good to be with you.
D.A. Carson:
My privilege.
Daniel Yang:
We’ve been talking to doctor D.R. Carson. Be sure to check out his book, The Cross and Christian Ministry Leadership Lessons from First Corinthians. Thanks again for listening to the stats of Church Leaders podcast. You can find more interviews, as well as other great content from ministry leaders at Church leaders.com/podcast. And again, if you found a conversation today helpful, I’d love for you to take a few moments to leave us a review that will help other ministry leaders find us and benefit from our content. Thanks for listening and we’ll see you in the next episode.
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You’ve been listening to the Stetzer Church Leaders podcast for more great interviews as well as articles, videos, and free resources, visit our website at Church leaders.com. Thanks for listening.
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