Max Lucado on The Stetzer ChurchLeaders Podcast.mp3: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.
Voice Over:
Welcome to the Stetzer Church Leaders Podcast, conversations with today’s top ministry leaders to help you lead better every day. And now, here are your hosts, Ed Stetzer and Daniel Yang.
Daniel Yang:
Welcome to the Stetzer Church Leaders Podcast, where we help Christian leaders navigate and lead through the cultural issues of our day. My name is Daniel Yang, national director of Churches of Welcome at World Relief. And today we’re talking with Max Lucado. Max entered ministry in 1978 and has served churches in Florida, Brazil, and Texas. He currently serves as teaching minister of Oak Hills Church in San Antonio, and Max is America’s best selling inspirational author with more than 145 million products in print. His latest book is What Happens Next A Traveler’s Guide Through the End of This Age. Now let’s go to Ed Stetzer, editor in chief of Outreach Magazine and the dean of the Talbot School of Theology.
Ed Stetzer:
Okay, Max, we’re so excited to have you on the podcast you’ve been on before. And if folks are interested, they should listen. We did this kind of ten leading communicator series, and I tried to bring all these amazing people who do amazing things. And I had you talk about telling stories. And so we’ll link that in the show notes as well. So there’s so many questions. The book we’re going to talk about is what Happens next. A Traveler’s Guide to the End of This age. But one of the things I found interesting in the book is that you articulate the changing of your mind in several places about millennialism, which I appreciated because I like where you are now about the rapture, and in a prior podcast that we had you on, you actually talked about changing your mind about spiritual gifts and speaking in tongues. And in that podcast you made news because you actually talked about. Now you speak in tongues regularly. So, I mean, you’re from the restoration Movement. You went to Abilene, you got these restoration routes, and now you’re I mean, you were a millennial for a while. You were not functioning with spiritual gifts in the same way. So here’s the first question. Maybe you’ve not been asked this before. Is it a good thing to change your mind about things as a pastor and a church leader. And two part how do you navigate that with your church when when like they maybe don’t? I mean, your church, Oak Hill. I’ve preached at Oak Hill. It’s not a charismatic church. And now you haven’t led them in that direction. But you are speaking in tongues. You’re now you believe in a preliminary premillennial view and more views you didn’t have 15 years ago. So is it good to change your mind and how do you walk your church through that?
Max Lucado:
I think that it’s healthy to have a to to keep your list of non-negotiables as short as possible. Um, I will not budge when it comes to the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Never have. Always, always believe. We’re saved by grace through faith and not by works. Uh, that’s not going to change. Um, I believe that outside of those core death, burial, and resurrection of Christ saved by grace through faith, the Bible is the inspired Word of God and every word of God that those cores, those core issues I’m not going to budge on. Right. I do believe that outside of that core, there’s another, uh, concentric circle of topics that you and I can agree on and disagree on and remain in robust fellowship. All come and preach where you preach. You come preach what I preach. We’ll stand shoulder to shoulder at the communion table. You know, it’s a robust not just a casual fellowship. It’s a robust because we agree on the big issues, right? The death, burial and resurrection of Christ that he’s returning. These are core issues. And so I think if if what a person can identify what the core issues are and say, okay, I’m not going to budge there, but I can work outside of that and say, okay, I maybe I misread revelation 20, or maybe I misread, uh, Paul’s teaching on speaking in tongues. Maybe I did. Maybe so and so has a good point. I’m going to reread that. Reconsider that. To be honest. Editor, I’m curious to get your take on this. I respect a pastor who says, you know, forever. I had a certain view about what issue do we want to talk about the role of women in the church. You know, uh, the how often we celebrate communion, you know, forever. I had this view and I thought, I think I missed it. Maybe I was leaning too much into what I was taught instead of studying myself. Well, do you have any thoughts on that? You know.
Ed Stetzer:
I will tell you, I. Someone asked me this recently. Where have you changed your mind? And I’m not. Maybe, maybe. And I thought maybe I should have changed my mind on some things I haven’t because, I mean, I theologically am pretty much. I mean, I’m more informed about most of those things. But when pressed, the I mean, my first church, we adopted the this is a very nichey conversation, but we adopted the 1689 Second London Confession for our doctrinal statement. So that’s pretty reformed Baptists, and that was when I was 21 years of age. Right? So and I would still be very comfortable with that. It doesn’t talk a lot about the kingdom of God. So probably one of the things that I would change my mind, I have changed my mind. I have a much more robust view of the inbreaking of the Kingdom of God, but I still believe that. So I don’t know, I would say where you have changed on some things. I mean, again, you’re a restoration movement. You were Church of Christ. Your church is now no longer affiliated. Um, but even that begins with more of your church was not a baptismal regenerationist congregation, but those.
Ed Stetzer:
Your journey is fascinating to me because you’ve stayed within evangelical Orthodox Protestantism in that whole journey, and that’s been costly. You know, we people saw the, you know, when you went to the National Cathedral, people were mad at you because you stayed Orthodox and sexuality. Um, you know, you’re the uniqueness of Christ. You stayed Orthodox there. But those are not I mean, those are kind of maybe inter Her evangelical shifts, but they are pretty decent shifts. And so but I think in some ways I applaud that. In other ways, I’m most people I’ve seen change their mind on things, keep changing their mind on other things. So how do you like is it the scriptures? The test is you found the prompting of the Holy Spirit. How do you think when someone challenges you? How do you think through? Because someone must have challenged you on the millennium, which is in what happens next, and the pre-trib rapture, which is in what happens next on speaking in tongues and more. So maybe share a little bit of the journey. Let’s start with what happens next. What are some of the journey where you changed your mind?
Max Lucado:
Um, I love I love this conversation and I don’t know if I have tidy answers to your questions. Um, but in the case of eschatology, um, I began to sense that my position that I had been taught to embrace all millennialism it didn’t answer some of the promises that God made, at least to my satisfaction. Um. About that. Someday Jesus will sit on the throne of David. You know, it’s it’s a.
Ed Stetzer:
Very particular promise.
Max Lucado:
A very particular promise. I thought, well, he’s got to do it as some of the interesting and beautiful prophecies in the book of Isaiah. I just couldn’t find them being realized apart from a millennial kingdom. So I said, okay, I want to go back and restudy this. And about the same time, our church leadership said, could you lead us in a study of the book of Daniel? And I said, no, no, don’t ask me. I know, I know, don’t ask me to teach you. I have to teach.
Ed Stetzer:
Once from Daniel in a in a series that I was, I was the guest. And I’m like, wow, okay. I mean, it’s you got to dig in.
Max Lucado:
You got to dig in. The first six chapters are a delight, right? There’s so much.
Ed Stetzer:
Fun. Pretty easy.
Max Lucado:
But then. But then you turn the corner. And so what happened is I got into a group, a study group of other pastors. This is a funny story. And this is presumed days, right? This was back in conference call days. And so I said so we said let’s all get on the conference call every Monday and we’ll study. We’ll share ideas, swap ideas like many pastors do, and and what we’re going to teach on the following Sunday. So the first few weeks, as we’re trucking through the first six chapters of Daniel, we’re swapping ideas. We got great illustrations. Oh, I didn’t know that. Oh, that was good. Okay, I’m going to use that. So we get halfway finished and now it’s time to start studying prophecy in the book of Daniel. I get on the call. I’m the only one on the call.
Ed Stetzer:
They all hopped off the call.
Max Lucado:
So I called a buddy. I called one of them and I said, where’s everybody? He said, oh, you didn’t know. We’re only going the first six chapters.
Ed Stetzer:
Wow. Or they could have all been raptured. See what I did there? See what I did there? There you go. That’s good.
Max Lucado:
Well, and so I thought, now why why do we have this?
Ed Stetzer:
Because if we believe the Bible is authoritative throughout.
Max Lucado:
We got to wade into it. Wade into it. Well, the rest of that study in the book of Daniel is the first time I thought, okay, I think I’ve misread some of this prophetic teaching. And that led me then to open up my mind to the possibility that there is going to be a thousand year reign of Christ, uh, the possibility of a rapture, the possibility of even rewards in heaven, not saved by reward, not rewarded according to our works, but recognized according to our works. And so some of these thoughts were it’s hard for people to believe. As I sit here and spit on you. I’m sorry. It’s okay.
Ed Stetzer:
You’re not the first person. This is why we usually do these over zoom. That’s right.
Max Lucado:
You need to wear a bib when you’re in.
Ed Stetzer:
You know, most people listen to this as a podcast, so they don’t know we’re in the same room together. We’re at Biola University with our great team from our cinema media arts school. Yeah. All right. Keep going.
Max Lucado:
Anyway, so, um, it just opened up my my, you know, I’m very blessed to have been a part of a church, uh, since 1988. Um, that is accustomed to like I said, we come out of a certain particular background and we have gradually, as we collectively have studied through different topics, we have shifted and moved a certain direction.
Ed Stetzer:
But like when you say shifted and move, that makes a lot of us nervous because it does. What are you going to shift and move on?
Max Lucado:
It does. Here’s here’s my here’s what I’ve done. I’ve never made those moves publicly without first going to our elders. And I will sit down with our elders. And in several cases we will study for months, months, and I’ll say, hey, here’s what I’m learning about the Holy Spirit. Here’s what I think the Lord is teaching me. Uh, and I won’t teach this unless I have your blessing. I don’t think that would be, uh, a respectful way to lead a church. I think that could result in revision.
Ed Stetzer:
Submitted to the authority.
Max Lucado:
Of your elders, admitted to the authority of the elders. And I’ll say. But here’s, for example. There was a time when I first came to the church. I taught that you go into the baptistry lost and you come out of the baptistry.
Ed Stetzer:
That would be theologically part of the restoration. Exactly. There are three streams of it. The Church of Christ stream would be much more baptismal regenerationist. And so there were times where you started with that. Okay. Exactly. Context of why you think that?
Max Lucado:
Perfect. And so I taught that for the first year or two. And then I began studying. One of the heroes that you and I share in common, John R.W. Stott. Come on. I read through his commentary on the book of Romans, and I thought, what? How did I miss this grace? I could have I needed him to write Romans to me. I was, I was, I was teaching a kind legalism. Sure. It wasn’t a harsh legalism, but it was legalism nonetheless. So I went to our elders and I said, you probably want me to leave the church, because I’m pretty.
Ed Stetzer:
Sure that a lot of Church of Christ pastors have read something on Romans left the church afterwards. Yeah. Yeah. Because, I mean, that’s a pretty historic I mean, that’s the movement since its beginning. Exactly.
Max Lucado:
Exactly. And so I said to the elders, I said, I will gladly leave without any. And I’d only been there a couple of years. And I was a young guy, didn’t have a job anywhere else, but I couldn’t in good conscience stay and teach what I was learning. And they said, well, teach us. Much to their credit, to their everlasting credit. They said, why don’t you lead us through a study of the book of Romans? And I did, and the result was we embraced a grace that we had never.
Ed Stetzer:
Romans will mess you up.
Max Lucado:
It will mess you up for good. I love Romans and a book I wrote way back then called In the Grip of Grace came out of that study, and.
Ed Stetzer:
I will tell you, I love that book. I mean, it’s it’s my wife loves the book. So we I mean, so many things you’ve written. Liberating, so freeing. And I love the gospel laid out there. Of course, you know, but you’re in a movement that, you know, I mean, you made the Restoration Herald, which is a very niche thing that nobody will know except you.
Max Lucado:
In.
Ed Stetzer:
The.
Max Lucado:
World do you know this? It’s my job. You are a pure historian, so, you know, that’s a.
Ed Stetzer:
Kind of a publication that calls out people are not staying true to the Restoration movement. Yeah. Um, you know, and so you changed on that. You adopted a what I would say is a biblical view of baptism and its place in, you know, as a, as a pointing back to something that’s happened rather than something that is happening. Okay. So but then you had to communicate this to your church. Now, the reason I wanted to set it up with this is when I preach at your church. Last time you had, um, you had one service that was still a cappella, which is still which. I don’t know if it still is, but at that time it was, which is from that same Church of Christ Restoration movement. And then it might have been two, I don’t remember there were three services, but one of them or two of them were a cappella. The other was with instruments. So again, that’s a thing where you change the tradition because there are actually very serious reformed people who are strict. Sometimes they only sing songs without instruments. So you can find that elsewhere. So how do you like walk through the change of mind on baptism because now you’re at the congregational level. And then how do you work through it on tradition? Because that’s what a lot of pastors are. And how do they know the difference? Like, I want to take a I want to be clear on gospel things, which is what you were, but still to there are things that we’re doing that I mean, some Church of Christ people might see it as a biblical command not to use instruments, but how do you distinguish between the two? Practice theology and how do you navigate? What a great.
Max Lucado:
Question. Thank you for asking this, because I’m very confident you have younger pastors who listen to your podcast, and they’re wondering, how do I navigate a change?
Ed Stetzer:
And, you know, the fact that we said this, that there are Church of Christ people who hold these views that are going to share this with one another, and they’re going to listen to your answer. Right.
Max Lucado:
And I love I love my heritage, I am I was led to Christ by a Church of Christ pastor. I was led to Christ, so I will forever be indebted. I was, um, I was educated at Abilene Christian University, educated. I attended college there and stayed there in the seminary and after school as a Church of Christ school. And we’ll be forever indebted to those professors for what they taught me. If I did anything right, Ed, and there’s a lot I’ve done wrong, but there’s anything I did right. It was to work in concert and to and to defer to our elders.
Ed Stetzer:
So that relationship with elders. But then. And you talked about that with them. So you taught them Romans walk through them, but then you had to stand before a congregation and say, in a sense, what we’ve been doing and what I’ve been doing and practicing is not clear on the gospel and grace. We’re not going to do that anymore. We’re going to do this now. Tell us how that went. Okay.
Max Lucado:
And because I had done the spade work, because I had done the relationship building with the elders, and, you know, once you start talking to 12 elders or ten elders or six or however many you have, they’re going to talk to the rest of the to their small group, or they’re going to talk to their Bible class, or they’re going to talk to their spouse and it’s going to start working its way out.
Ed Stetzer:
That’s right. It’s already kind of leaked out.
Max Lucado:
Right, right, right. And I would keep saying to them, I, I do not want to stand before God having divided the church. I do not I will leave first and I will leave in good terms. You can throw me a potluck supper or, you know, I will never I just that just goes against me. Uh, and so. But if you’re willing to study this with me, here’s where I have ended up. Here’s how I got there. And I was blessed with good elders who were open to studying the Lord’s word and opening Scripture. And so when we would, for example, talk about worship, a strong identifying mark of the Churches of Christ is a cappella music.
Ed Stetzer:
As you said, I’ve never been to it before. It was.
Max Lucado:
Beautiful. It’s beautiful. It was. It’s beautiful. It’s beautiful. Oh, it’s just the. It’s beautiful. We found that it was a bit odd for visitors for sure. They would come in and say, what have I just walked into? 1 or 2 songs is fine, but, you know, without. And so my case to the elders was, I really think we can reach more people if we have kind of a more contemporary music was the word I use. And so their response initially was, no, we’re not. And I said, okay, I’m going to stay here and I’m not going to leave. I’m going to love we I love the church. You love me, we’re going to we’re going to keep going. I brought it up maybe 3 or 4 years later. Really? Okay. And they said, okay, I think you’re right. I think you’re right. So just a little time, little time, little time. And I just don’t think that now I, I would never say at a church that told me I couldn’t teach about Jesus. Sure, sure. I would never stay at a church that told me I couldn’t preach, that were saved by grace through faith. I would never stay at a church that didn’t teach the imminent return of Christ, you know? So there’s few things I’d never say, but there are many non-negotiables that, yeah, they put up with a lot putting up with me. No, for sure, for sure.
Ed Stetzer:
Well, and you changing your mind I think is is it’s kind of a theme of what happens next. Again, the book is what happens next. The travelers guide through the end of this age where you were, you were a millennial. You didn’t teach or have a heavy emphasis on the rapture, the pre-tribulation rapture. Um, and again, so in your I love the fact that when you were preaching through a book of the Bible, the Bible changed your mind on some things that are in the Bible. I love that that speaks so, so well of that situation. Okay. So my question then is on this like now you’ve got a different view. This book is again I you’re we’ll link to the radio show. You’re going to you’re on my radio show where we kind of explore in depth some of your change of mind. But for this audience, remember, we’re pastors and church leaders. I mean, you’ve adopted more of a traditional evangelical conservative view, and there’s even a chart I knew, I knew when there was a chart that that Max Lucado has adopted some new approaches. There’s a.
Max Lucado:
Chart. He’s gone off the edge.
Ed Stetzer:
Well, I didn’t you know, I’d actually I mean, in a sense, because, again, you’re the last podcast we did that made all the news was you’re speaking in tongues now. So this seems like a thing that I mean, there’s a book out called The Rise and Fall of Dispensationalism that talks about some of how this, this view that you hold became very popular and then is in pretty substantial decrease in popularity. It’s hard to find a 40 year old or younger inerrantist Bible scholar who holds a pre-tribulation rapture. I’m guessing you picked up on that when you were going through that.
Max Lucado:
And I’ve been a little surprised that I have picked. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ed Stetzer:
Now, a friend of mine who is a scholar who’s who is pre-trib rapture. He said, you know, it’s hard for all of us until Israel was restored on May 14th, 1948. So, so for him, he’s like, he’s like, yeah. So all those years when people weren’t looking at that, and now you’ve got a restored nation that plays into your book as well. So talk to me some about how, again, because I keep going back to the theme of how you change your mind. Like, how do you communicate this change of mind to your congregation? And then I want to unpack some of where you would be now. Okay. On particularly on the on the end times.
Max Lucado:
I am so fascinated by something you said real quick. Yeah. Can I just tell you.
Ed Stetzer:
That you can do anything? No, no, no.
Max Lucado:
Let me just. I’ve never had this conversation. Uh, kind of out loud with anybody other than over a cup of coffee. But I’ve been curious why, uh, as you and I have discussed, I think, on an earlier program, the early church fathers really embraced the millennial kingdom.
Ed Stetzer:
Overwhelmingly. Overwhelmingly so. Not not anonymous, not completely, not unanimously, but overwhelmingly. They were pre-millennial, but not so much pre-trib.
Max Lucado:
And then at some point, the teaching increasingly became amillennial. And and.
Ed Stetzer:
That made a lot of factors for that, a lot of.
Max Lucado:
Factors. And I wonder if one of the factors and I’m testing this with you because you’re such a great church historian. Is one of the factors that good students of Scripture would read the prophecy about God regathering his children to Israel. They’d read those prophecies and they’d say, well, that’s never going to happen.
Ed Stetzer:
The Setzer Church Leaders podcast is part of the Church Leaders Podcast Network, which is dedicated to resourcing church leaders in order to help them face the complexities of ministry. Today, the Church Leaders Podcast Network supports pastors and ministry leaders by challenging assumptions, by providing insights and offering practical advice and solutions and steps that will help church leaders navigate the variety of cultures and contexts that we’re serving in. Learn more at Church leaders.com/podcast Network. I think that’s a fair case to make.
Max Lucado:
I mean, they’re scattered all over the world.
Ed Stetzer:
I mean, the idea of Israel being restored as a nation would be just a bizarre possibility.
Max Lucado:
Utter impossible, utter impossible. And so the explanation became, okay, that must be a metaphorical. And so what has happened is we have centuries of respected scholars who have taught something other than a literal millennial kingdom, of which I.
Ed Stetzer:
Agree on that part. So I think a literal millennial kingdom is. You’re right on with that. But I’m just wondering if Max Lucado is single handedly going to bring back the pre-trib rapture, because I think that’s been on pretty substantive decline. Oh my.
Max Lucado:
Goodness. Yeah. Well, maybe maybe maybe.
Ed Stetzer:
Okay. So okay. So so now did you start get up and start teaching this at church because okay okay I’m I’m at Mariners right. And teaching pastors there and I do in the fall I do a series on Wednesday night. And it’s kind of like we go deeper on stuff. And I was talking about the kingdom of God. And all the questions were basically really kept pointing to the to the end of things. And so I finally gave in and said, okay, I’ll tell you what I think about some of these things and how it relates to the in-breaking of the Kingdom of God first and second advent, the new heavens and new earth. And I will tell you, I resisted it because I’ve seen it done badly so many times. I’ve seen the kooks get into this stuff. Now I’m saying, I’m not saying Max Lucado is a kook. We’ve all seen The Kooks, we’ve seen the date setters, we’ve seen all this. And I think it’s turned us off to that, because maybe a generation before me, this was so overwhelming. And now people are like, maybe we don’t need to talk about this so much. So you’re standing up at Oak Hills Church and you say, I’m going to teach on this, and.
Max Lucado:
I and I, by the time I stand up at the church, I’ve already gone over this entire series with the elders.
Ed Stetzer:
So you actually, like, do like teach the elders. That’s fascinating. I do not.
Max Lucado:
In as detail as I do in this, but you’re letting them know I walk down this timeline with them and I say, now check me, test me, you know, correct me if you don’t want me to go down this, I won’t. Now, by now, our church is, you know, a conglomeration of different backgrounds. So quite a few of the elders said, well, this is what I grew up hearing. 2 or 3 said, I’ve never heard anything like this before. Can you go a little slower? But by then we come to a consensus that this is this is where where we are.
Ed Stetzer:
You do this with your elders and let me just say, I love that. I love that Max Lucado is under the authority of his elders. Yeah. Yeah.
Max Lucado:
That’d be a good topic sometime, because I’m. I’ve had too many good friends who are not. We’ve all seen it, and they’re paying the price for it. No accountability. And so. So yes.
Ed Stetzer:
Each of them. And then do you, like, start preaching?
Max Lucado:
All the elders asked me to do was say, would you present this as your point of view? Okay. And not necessarily as the church’s, which.
Ed Stetzer:
Is kind of how you do it in the book. Exactly. It’s not strident. It’s not it’s not. You got to see it this way, but it is persuasive. And of course, it’s with the incredible storytelling genius of Max. And what happens next is the name of the book. It’s amazing.
Max Lucado:
And so I would proceed or I would begin every sermon. Uh, I would say we’re going down this timeline. And I would say, now this just makes sense to me. You may see it differently. You may have a different sequence. And I’d always throw in my joke. You may have it, see it another way and say, all right, you can be wrong if you want. You know, it’s just funny things. What you’re trying what you need to do, though, is disarm this whole thing of I’ve got it figured out. I’m dogmatic. That’s what turns people off. People love to be stimulated, to be challenged, to be led into a tough scripture like Daniel chapter nine or revelation chapter 20. And they appreciate the pastor at least trying. Right?
Ed Stetzer:
That’s what I sense immediately, because I was resisting it because of the kooks and the date setters. And when I did, it was really I mean, first of all, there’s so much and this is one of things you’ll see when you read what happens next. You’ll see just I mean, this is all over the page of Scripture. Uh, you know, the idea of the end times. Jesus talks about it. The scriptures talk about it multiple times, lots of prophecy, lots of beautiful things coming ahead as Jesus returns to rule and reign. So I really found that part compelling. So are we in the end times right now. Max Lucado.
Max Lucado:
I think we are okay.
Ed Stetzer:
But is that tell me what that means.
Max Lucado:
Okay. To me, that means that something happened in 1948. So you come.
Ed Stetzer:
Back to the restoration.
Max Lucado:
Of Israel, the restoration of Israel. Um, I just think something happened. A page with stern. Some prophecies were fulfilled in that supernatural event that signaled that we have moved into the final chapter. I do not know. And I wrestle with the generation question because earlier.
Ed Stetzer:
We talked that was on the radio show. So people listen. We talked a little bit about how some people in 19 May 14th, 1948, Israel was restored. People said biblical generation is 40 years. Therefore, there were a lot of predictions out of 1988, or maybe a rapture in 1981 that didn’t turn out to be accurate. So if it is, if the restoration of Israel is a key marker in prophetic history, you know, I mean, in a generation, are we if 100 years from now, does that mean that it could it be 100 years before Jesus returns? Or do you think it’s going to happen within this literal generation from 1940? No, I’m not taking a strong view of it. But certainly you would say that the restoration of Israel is a significant moment in God’s prophetic timeline.
Max Lucado:
Yes it is, and the Ezekiel 3839 passages are just. It’s hard to ignore the fact that there is a prophecy that Israel, in the end times, will be surrounded by its enemies. And and we see what’s happening even today, right? With, with all this saber rattling. Yeah.
Ed Stetzer:
We don’t know, like when this releases, that saber rattle may be act of war. So it could be. No, we can say there’s a war in the Middle East right now. And it may be about to be a larger war. It could turn into something.
Max Lucado:
I mean, by the time you and I turned this recording off. Right. I know it’s that it’s that severe. So I do think we’re doing our our church a favor when we at least raise these questions. And I think we don’t have to be dogmatic, but we do have to be deliberate and say, let’s as God’s people press into God’s Word and see if there’s something here that we can learn, if it can activate and animate a curiosity within us.
Ed Stetzer:
Yeah. And I think what happens next is good for it’s geared towards everybody. But it’s something that I think pastors could read and they’ll be challenged by some of those things. I enjoyed parts of it, and I liked your journey in getting to some of those, some of those places. Okay. You once asked a church about the Antichrist and said, Who’s the Antichrist? And people shouted out for names. We won’t go through necessarily the names, but two of them were political figures. That’s right. So let’s talk about the current cultural moment we’re in. We’ve never seen anything like this. This is the most tumultuous, turbulent and divided time in our lifetime. It’s not the most in American history, but late 60s, maybe most. Most of our listeners won’t have a living memory of that. But the world was falling apart in 1968. Go back before that to the early 1900s. You can see these things come in waves. Civil war, civil war. So how are you guarding and or using your pulpit to address some of the moment that we’re in and keep us focused on the mission we’re on? Because that’s a lot of pastors are like, yes, sir. All right. We’re in the end times. Should I be more aggressive? Should I be? What should I say?
Max Lucado:
Yeah, I would encourage people. If you’re just curious to go to the Oak Hills Church website, and there’s a sermon I preached last May.
Ed Stetzer:
We’ll we’ll link to this too. Okay.
Max Lucado:
It’s called The United Church in a Divided World. And I tell what I think has got to be the greatest story of somebody who practiced this. Uh, a pastor by the name of Buckner Fanning was really well known in San Antonio when I moved there. Great man of God. He’s in heaven now. He was a marine in World War Two, and one of his assignments was to go to Nagasaki after the dropping of the atomic bomb. And there he, a devout Baptist, uh, learned that there was a Christian church in downtown Nagasaki. And he got the address and he went to the church. Of course, he describes this beautifully in one of his sermons. Beautifully. That’s a terrible word, the devastation. Right. But the the building’s Buildings, correct? Just still corpses on the street. And he found this church, and there he shows up and in his military finest. I don’t know what he was thinking, but he showed up in his military finest marine uniform, and he walks into this Japanese Methodist church, and they are meeting in a building where the walls are dilapidated. They’re stacked unstacking taking dirt off the chairs, and they’re about to have communion. And they see him with a Bible, even though he’s wearing an American uniform. They welcome him. They welcome him around the table and they serve him communion first. Wow. And I think, how did they do that? How did those Japanese believers do that? And somehow they were able to elevate the communion, the death, burial and the resurrection of Christ over what were severe. This differences you know. And if they could can’t we can’t we. And that’s my urge. That’s my appeal to the church in this day and age in which you and I live. Um, let’s just let’s just keep the big thing. The big thing, okay?
Ed Stetzer:
So I think I agree with you. I’m also think that there are times when people assume evangelicals or Christians, even Christians, believe certain things because the political moment becomes so aggressive that I want to speak up and say, no, that’s not what we believe. That’s not representative of us. You and I were pretty vocal in 2016. We expressed concerns publicly about Trump. You wrote a very widely read article, which was very unusual for you. Um, and I don’t remember when this was during the primaries, but the point is, is that I think for a lot of people, they kind of struggle with how to navigate 2016 2020. They figured a little bit more. Um, but by 2024, it seems that churches have sort of sorted themselves out. People who want a lot more politics went to churches that had that. People who wanted less went to places that didn’t. Do you? I mean to now, would you speak up or say some of these things? Because we can kind of look and not everyone listens to this as American. But there’s a lot of real issues that impact Christians about religious liberty, about pro-life issues, about immigration, about the way we speak of others. Is it better for us to just focus on what unites us, or also to speak up about some of those things?
Max Lucado:
Well, what a good question.
Ed Stetzer:
It’s a tough question, though. It’s tough. And I would say, too, that you and I were both I mean, I’ve noticed we were both more vocal in 2016. For me, in part, I realized evangelicals didn’t listen to me. So I could keep saying the things I was saying, or I could focus on building institutions with godly leaders who work towards the inbreaking of the Kingdom of God and impact communities. So in some ways, I shifted my focus. Did you also shift your focus?
Max Lucado:
I shifted my trust in the sovereignty of God and. I really did. I came to, um. I’m fiercely pro-life. I’m fiercely pro-Israel. Um, I am convinced that God can direct the heart of a ruler like a, uh, like he directs the. I’m trying to quote a verse in Proverbs, but I’m messing it up.
Ed Stetzer:
No, I know the verse. We can paraphrase. This is the new Living Bible, the new.
Max Lucado:
Living Bible, the new Lucado.
Ed Stetzer:
Bible, the.
Max Lucado:
But God can direct the hearts of the the ruler like he can direct the heart of the king. There we go. There we go. There we go. So I was pretty wound up in 2016. And I’m still not. I’m just I’m not a big fan of what’s happening. Yeah. I’m not.
Ed Stetzer:
Would you put. But I’m not a big fan of.
Max Lucado:
I’m not going to write another.
Ed Stetzer:
I’m not going to write another. You’re just less engaged and involved. And that’s obviously a choice on your part.
Max Lucado:
It’s it’s a choice. And I don’t know if I can defend that choice. Maybe it feels a bit, uh, unnecessary that I’ve decided I’m going to really focus on the bigger thing to me. And in my case, it’s this book or the end times of helping people. I’m going to really focus right there. I’m not going to cash in any chips. I’m not going to try to win or lose credibility with anybody on the on that political issue. It’s not quite my lane. And I would say it’s not quite.
Ed Stetzer:
A lot of pastors because you maybe stepped out of your lane. I was even more engaged in that lane, I think, than you were. But again, for me, I think that the where we are in 2024, I’d rather help impact institutions that raise up women and men that are going to seek kingdom communities that they lead, that make a difference. And and that’s where I might be and I but your your phrase, you know, I’m pro-life and pro-Israel. I mean, that that that’s again, I don’t think I’ve ever heard you say I’m pro-Israel until you wrote this book. No.
Max Lucado:
And I became pro-Israel as a result of studying in times. Okay.
Ed Stetzer:
So let’s talk about what.
Max Lucado:
I’ve always been fiercely pro-life.
Ed Stetzer:
Right. Let’s talk about what that means, because the modern state of Israel is, of course, not the same thing as the biblical Israel that’s referenced in the pages of the Old Testament and in the New Testament. There are differences, but there are there’s a continuity of ethnicity. There’s a continuity of Jewish belief, and more so is is it Israel right or wrong, or how do you sort of.
Max Lucado:
I have a kind of a different landing place on Israel. Oh, boy. Uh, nobody knows my email in this, right? No, they don’t, they don’t.
Ed Stetzer:
It’s Max Lucado. I’m not going to tell you his email.com.
Max Lucado:
Here’s what I think. It seems to me that that 144,000 listing of the 12 tribes in the book of revelation. 12,000 from from each, uh, from each one, 12,000 from each tribe, that that evangelistic effort of those who have been sealed by God is going to be the greatest day for the Jewish people. Now, if my take on the rapture is right, the church is gone by then. And, uh, but.
Ed Stetzer:
That’s I mean, I think a lot of people hold that view. I don’t think that’s like. That’s not. Yeah.
Max Lucado:
Yeah. Um, I believe that that 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes, that 144,000 that go out in the power of the sealed by God is going to be Israel at its finest hour. So I believe that’s what’s going to make Israel special. Uh, I believe that, no, nobody is saved apart from the grace of Christ. I don’t believe you’re saved just by being, uh, ethnically Israeli. But I do believe that that unique assignment, when the church is gone for Israel to step forth and proclaim the gospel, is going to be Israel at its finest. Yeah.
Ed Stetzer:
And I don’t think I don’t think that’s like a shockingly unusual interpretation. And and just so you know, even at the Talbot School of Theology, we have a lot of people don’t know this. We have two, three extensions, one in Chiang Mai, Thailand, one in Kiev, Ukraine, where I just came back from, and the other one is in Brooklyn. And it’s actually in partnership with Chosen People Ministries, where we train in messianic ministry and leadership and do their M.Div. right there. So, so very much. We are very prioritized.
Max Lucado:
Can you answer the question you asked me? I’d be really curious to your take.
Ed Stetzer:
I think that for me, there’s still unfulfilled prophecies related to the Jewish people, to ethnic Israel. And and I think some of those are laid out in Scripture. And, you know, some of those are kind of shrouded in some mystery, but they’re still unfulfilled business that God has promises that God has, which, again, we all know that many of our reform sisters and brothers wouldn’t hold the same view and they would feel fulfilled in Christ. Your theology? Yeah. So. Well, I mean, might I say it that way? But. Yes, but but there’s there’s a distinction in what their view is, I think compared to maybe a view that they’re still God’s still doing some things related to, to ethnic Israel. I think the question a lot of younger evangelicals are trying to figure out is, does that mean I adopt a position of Israel, right or wrong, modern Israel, the modern nation state, and I’m not of the view that Israel can. The modern nation state can do no wrong. However, I would put myself in the league of those who would be supporters of of Israel’s ability to defend itself and more. I think our best ally in the Middle East. I think the fact is a functioning democracy. All those things matter deeply to our support as a nation, to Israel. I think so, I think that’s where the challenge, I don’t think I think there are many evangelicals who don’t want to give a blank check to is modern the modern nation state of Israel, which is not quite the same thing, to do anything they want, right? They’re working and hoping for a just, you know, a just end of the war. And we all, I think, I think I don’t know any well, I mean, there are people, but I don’t know any evangelical Christians who would see anything positive about Hamas, just evil. And, and you know, and see the Iranian regime as, as evil and more and simultaneously, we recognize that the Palestinians are made in the image of God, worthy of dignity and respect. So I think that’s the concern that sometimes.
Max Lucado:
That’s the sticking.
Ed Stetzer:
Point. Yeah. And so, so, so But I think we can. I mean, we can walk and chew gum here. Yeah, we can, we can. I do think that the restoration of Israel is certainly impactful and related to God’s prophetic timeline. I think we can think that. Can we? I think we can think there’s a future for ethnic Israel connected to the land that’s unfulfilled prophecy. I think we both think that. And then the question is, how do we deal with the modern nation state? And and for me, I’m, you know, I think, I mean, if we had October 7th happen in America, um, it’s fascinating the standards that Israel is held to that other nations wouldn’t be held to as they fight a war that was so horrific at multiple levels. But again, even as we’re recording this, we don’t know how bad that can be. So so it doesn’t mean to me that I think everything modern Israel does is okay, and I’m going to be supportive of it. And so I don’t know if you had the same view or different view or where would you nuance it? I agree.
Max Lucado:
100%. I agree 100%. Um, I do think that it’s, uh, it’s a fascinating thing for us to behold from a political standpoint, but even more so from a biblical standpoint. I still reflect upon the attempt of Iran to penetrate the Iron Dome. What was that 3 or 4 months ago now?
Ed Stetzer:
200 missiles that night.
Max Lucado:
And they all but one failed.
Ed Stetzer:
Yeah, but I got to say, I, by the time this recording is released, there could be a thousand missiles from Hezbollah. So we don’t know. We just.
Max Lucado:
Don’t. We don’t, so we don’t.
Ed Stetzer:
So for me, the total and I don’t think I say for me, the totality of my faith is not going to be tied up with whether or how Israel fares in this war. Though, again, I you know, you’ve already heard kind of my my thoughts on who’s the bad guy. And the challenge is, is that it’s a complex situation, a complex region and complex history. So I. So tell me, you were about to say so you saw, though, the fact that one got through even as a sign of God’s favor.
Max Lucado:
I thought it was a miracle. Okay. I thought it was a miracle. I don’t think it justifies.
Ed Stetzer:
Sure.
Max Lucado:
Some of the things that the Israelis have done. And as soon as I say that sentence, I think, what would I do if I was Israeli? Right. You know.
Ed Stetzer:
But we can give examples. For example, we could say that that the Israeli, uh, you know, going into Gaza, that there are deeply regrettable in casualties that come from a war. But we and people could debate how careful Israel is or not, but we could simultaneously say that there are people in settlers in Judea and Galilee who have actually attacked others as well, that even the Israeli government condemns. So there are things that not every person, that everyone, that anyone that anything does in Israel is going to be okay to us as evangelical Christians. We want a just resolution to this war that recognizes that all people Jews, Arabs, Palestinians, Muslims are made in the image of God worthy and dignity and respect. Well said. So it’s tricky though, because again, no matter what you say it sounds. It can sound totalizing to people like, well, this means I’m for everything, no matter what anybody does. Right. And I don’t know. That’s not where I am. It might be where you are. I know not to speak for you. Not at all.
Max Lucado:
And I can certainly appreciate the especially, like you said, the younger evangelicals who are wrestling with this, trying to trying to come to terms with what we’re witnessing right now. Yeah.
Ed Stetzer:
So, okay. Last, last, last thought. So if, if remember this audience, this is the Stetzer Church Leaders podcast. So this is pastors and church leaders. Yeah. So let’s say I want to teach more on this. I mean, I left your book challenging that because of The kooks and the and the date setters. I have not talked about this enough. And so I’m going to talk a little bit about this at Mariners Church this fall. So if somebody like that is here, they’ve kind of stayed away because of the weirdness around it. What would your exhortation to be to that pastor and church leader about what to teach.
Max Lucado:
Besides read my book?
Ed Stetzer:
Well, first they should read what happens next. A Traveler’s Guide to the End of This age.
Max Lucado:
I couldn’t resist. No, it’s all.
Ed Stetzer:
Good, man. I like it. I enjoyed it.
Ed Stetzer:
So, um.
Max Lucado:
Well, you know what I did? I, I, I loved the series of books that you have to check the publisher here, but there’s a whole series of books for views on.
Ed Stetzer:
Yes, I love those. Yeah, I think that’s a Zondervan thing.
Max Lucado:
I think it’s a Zondervan thing. For views on the rapture, four views on the millennium, four views on eternal punishment. And I just collected those and I would read, you know, all four views and some things got so detailed I would be, you know, crossing my eyes by the time I got through the end of it. But it was very, very helpful. Um, and so I think it’s helpful for pastors to try to land the plane in a very reverential, reverential way, always saying, this is what I think. This is where I land. And here are the four very valid viewpoints of these very tough topics. But here’s where I here’s where I am, here’s where I’m going to teach. So I think if I were sitting with a group of seminarians and they wanted to tackle the topic, I would say start right there. That worked for me.
Ed Stetzer:
Good deal. And so then you teach and preach as part of your regular sermon flow. Your elders told you to just present it as your view, not the only view. Yeah, but at the end of the day, I hope that the. Well, the hope of heaven, the hope of the restoration of all things, all these things are present in what happens next.
Max Lucado:
Really moved me. And the truth is, we can study end times and land on wonderful things without really getting tangled up in the controversial things. Right? We can all explore the ultimate victory of Christ. We can all imagine what it’s going to be like when every knee shall bow and every tongue confess. I mean, it’ll all pack up. Ten weeks of sermons on on the new age, the new the new kingdom, the new heaven and the new earth. And so I know we talk about the things that are a little bit more controversial, but there’s enough wonderful material to to for any pastor to lead their church through, especially in a day like today. Thanks, Max. Thank you. Eddie.
Daniel Yang:
We’ve been talking to Max Lucado. Be sure to check out his book, What Happens Next? A Traveler’s Guide Through the End of This Age, and you can learn more about Max at Max lucado.com. And thanks again for listening to this Detzner Church Leaders podcast. You can find more interviews, as well as other great content from ministry leaders at Church leaders.com/podcast. And again, if you found our conversation today helpful, I’d love for you to take a few moments to leave us a review. That’ll help other ministry leaders find us and benefit from our content. Thanks for listening. We’ll see you on the next episode.
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